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Original poster

mums in court for toddlers fighting - beggars belief!!!!

74 replies

pinknfluffy29 · 20/04/2007 13:25

how on earth can these people think that this is acceptable behaviour???

everyday i seem to be shocked by something else with regards to babies and children!!!

OP posts:

edam · 22/04/2007 08:53

The newspaper report I read said the two toddlers who they forced to fight now live with their father's family. Thank God. Apparently he discovered the footage when he came home from active service - took the camcorder to his parents as he thought it would have the children playing... So he or his family must have gone to the police. Makes you wonder how well he knew his wife. And what happened to the other children in the room - are social services intervening to make sure the other women's children are OK?

Bubble99 · 22/04/2007 19:30

Poor babies.

I hope and trust that SS will monitor very closely any children that these 'women' have in the future.

I agree, cod, about the 'meeja' thing, but surely there must have been enough evidence for the CPS to allow it to trial?

Elasticwoman · 22/04/2007 21:28

They have been named and shamed.
The mother lost her children.
They have to do community service.
If they don't, they'll go to jail.
It's not a slap on the wrist - they'll never live it down.
It will only criminalise them further to put them in jail.
But I agree that none of them should ever be allowed to look after any other child for the rest of their lives.

Yes it's a shocking case and has made us all v angry. But let's not make victims of these vicious women.

kookaburra · 22/04/2007 21:49

Made me sick. At least the kids are now with the dad's family who sound normal.

BigGitDad · 22/04/2007 22:40

Elasticwomen, can you explain what you mean 'By not making victims of these women?'
Do you think they have been punished enough?

zookeeper · 23/04/2007 07:09

Elasticwoman, normally I would agree but if you had seen the way they swaggered out of court I'm sure you would lose any sympathy for them. They gave the impression of having learnt nothing.

zookeeper · 23/04/2007 07:11

I would assume that the likihood is that the mother will have another couple within a few years, they will automaticaly go on the at risk register and the whole miserable cycle will begin again.

Blandmum · 23/04/2007 07:47

The trouble with the people who do these sorts of things is that nothing seems to make them realise how abhorant their behaviour has been.

They think that whatever they do is OK, they know their 'right' but have no idea what a responsibility is.

And when they get caught out, they will look around for someone else to blame, society, their schools, anyone.

What they neatly forget is that they have never taken instruction from anyone, over anything, in their whole sorry lives.

The most horrific thing about this whole horrific affair is that they really don't see that what they did was wrong. And I am at a losst to know what would make them see how wrong they were.

yellowrose · 23/04/2007 08:28

some people need to have the chop like cats and dogs so that they can't breed. they don't deserve to have children. my worry is that some of these types of adults have children that they abuse like this and then they end up in my son's primary school (god forbid) and i have to take the responsibility of teaching my son that he should not copy the shit behaviour of other adults/children. this country is going down the toilet in child rearing. i do not ever blame schools or society, etc, i blame the parents.

yellowrose · 23/04/2007 08:29

...and these are just the small no. of cases that we hear about because they get reported in the media. there must be millions of such cases that we never, ever hear about. it is the tip of the iceberg.

Biglips · 23/04/2007 08:31

i was disgusted and shocked....i read it on the front of the newspaper saying that it was the same version as dog fights!!! but the poor toddlers were terrified.... i mean how did they get the toddlers to fight!!? i wonder how old there were?

mrsjohnsimnelcake · 23/04/2007 08:38

intersting POV from cod,
i completely agree that is is hard to amek an informed opinion from the media.... so where dowe get one from?

My gut reaction is that this is a despicable piece of behaviour and that these women should go to prison. IIRC somebody involved in dog fighting has recently gone to prison for this- it does smack of double standrads.

so, where to get the information from that will give me a balanced opinion??? dunno?

BigGitDad · 23/04/2007 11:07

Martianbishop, I totally agree with you. Reading about this at the weekend I found it very distressing that people take pleasure from such gratuatious violence especially from within their own family involving such young children.
Like I said earlier I hope the children get the love and care they deserve in life.

Elasticwoman · 23/04/2007 15:53

BGDad - by making victims out of them I suppose I mean jailing them, as they would undoubtedly suffer violence and threats from other prisoners and be in fear of their lives. However, I do think they should be jailed regardless of this, if they fail to fulfil their community punishment or commit another offence.

Some one said this is the tip of the iceberg, and it may be. On the other hand, there is no evidence in this case that the offence wasn't a one-off for the women concerned.

It is a very valid point that if jail is right for dog-fighting it is right for this case too. But the dog-fighting might be the last of a string of offences on the perpetrator's part.

About their swaggering out of court: I didn't know about that. Was there a crowd jeering and shouting at them?

I agree with Martianbishop that it would be nice to see some genuine remorse from these women. I do not think that remorse is likely to be proportional to the severity of punishment.

BigGitDad · 23/04/2007 16:24

Elasticwoman, I had a conversation with a friend of mine who is a solicitor who specialises in Child cruelty/protection cases (If that is the right term) He was saying that a suspended jail sentence was a very serious thing and so was the community service order, in that should they breach either then they would go to jail.
I had to differ from his view as I did not think they were. I have seen some of the stuff they do on the community service orders, removing graffitti etc and it did not seem much of a deterrent to me. As for the suspended jail sentence it seems like to me that they got away with it?
I don't doubt they will get a hard time fronm their local community now this is out in the open.

yellowrose · 23/04/2007 17:17

elastic - i didn't mean it was the tip of the iceberg for these women (but i would have thought that if you were so cruel to a child once, then it is more than probable you have done it before) but actually i was talking about these sorts of cases in general. i think a great deal of this sort of stuff goes on behind closed doors, the media never find out, we never find out.

wannaBeWhateverIWannaBe · 23/04/2007 17:24

I haven't read the whole thread but saw this on the news last week. What I find most disturbing is the fact no-one seems t have mentioned what has happened to the children involved in all of this. surely they should have been taken away?

akaJamiesMum · 23/04/2007 17:26

The children are now all in the care of their grandparents (father's Mum and Dad). From what I have read their Mum has lost custody of them permenantly.

wannaBeWhateverIWannaBe · 23/04/2007 17:30

and so she should.

Elasticwoman · 23/04/2007 20:20

Yellowrose - I know you were talking in general about the tip of the iceberg, but I was bringing us back to the present case. Justice has to be done in individual cases on the basis of hard evidence, not on generalities and likelihoods.

I agree with your solicitor friend, BGDad. Community service can be humiliating and is certainly tedious and unpaid. I'd rather not do it, myself. Also, if these culprits were to go to prison, they might just learn to reach even further depths of depravity. It could be that none of them had any previous convictions either, so that would be another reason for not jailing them.

unknownrebelbang · 23/04/2007 21:03

Unpaid work is (or was) seen as a direct alternative to prison.

kimi · 23/04/2007 21:20

Why was I not surprised by the photos of these women!

Bloke dog fighting got 4 years, good to know dogs are so well protected.

BigGitDad · 23/04/2007 21:29

I don't have a problem with the dog fighting sentence, I have two dogs myself. I just feel that those women got off lightly.
Elasticwoman, I see where you are coming from. I would love to see the court notes on this case. I was told by my friend that not all the information would be released in this case as they have to protect the identity of the child. I thought it was strange when the BBC were reporting on the case as they seemed to holding back on the reporting.

calebsmum · 25/04/2007 21:25

Looks like the case is being reviewed due to the leniency of the sentences

here

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