Yet another article re: why mothers should return to work

[boogiewoogie]

Just snatching a couple of minutes during a coffee break, will come back. What do you think of this?

Recognise it Yesllowrose, we are beyond feminism.

"I'm slim, (very) pretty, have lots to talk about with my partner and all my family and do lots of fun things with my child that we both enjoy. In fact, she has given me opportunities to do things I would never have been able to do before I had her - for example I commissioned a drawing of her from an artist and other artist friends of hers thought my daughter so beautiful (she was naked in the drawing by the way) that now I have artists and photographers ASKING ME to use her as a model and I have this amazing collection of artworks that I receive in return for the favour. And I meet all these young international artists in Paris... it's wonderful, and all because of my daughter."

roflmao! pmsl!

SJ - sweetheart, I was taking the piss....

I'm fat and (frankly) rather average looking, I don't have a partner so hardly speak at all once DS is in bed, my CM and mum do lots of fun things with my DS which he really enjoys whilst I slave over a hot computer to keep a roof over his head. In fact my DS has given me the opportunity to do things I would never have done before having him for example, I go to climbers and creepers at Kew Gardens which I always thought was dull and tedious and in fact I still think is dull and tedious but now I am a member of Kew and have guest passes and so have become popular with other mums who want to get into Kew free with their DC's; ASKING me to get them in free and in return I have this amazing collection of (pretend) friends. I meet these middle-aged women for coffee occasionally in West London and all because of my son.

I have more in common with Anna than I realised.

El, waving back.

Feminism is just wanting women and men to have equal rights under the law and equity at home which many of them on the planet don't have. It's hard not to be in favour of it unless you'd like to remove women's right to right. I suppose the non feminist will be lobbying to support the changes in a few countries abroad so that evidence given by two women has the standing of that of one man - that is one change going through I believe elsewhere where currently women and men have equal standing as witnesses.

didn't someone once say that she would know women were truly equal when you got terribly mediocre women at the top!

lol. That's starting to happen where I work (but I don't know how much of that is having to be seen to have women represented and not worrying too much about whether the candidates are any good).

yes, feminism is about equality between men and women (thanks for pointing that out, we didn't know !)and very few WOMEN in ANY part of the world wish NOT to have that.

Even in countries were feminism SEEMS weak you will find that there is active resistance to male domination.

No woman on earth actually wishes to be physically/verbally abused, dominated, have her children taken away, treated differently under the law, receive less pay, nor be totally dependent on a man or another human being.

Your posts on other countries Xenia really do come across as patronising bigotry.

which country are you talking about by the way Xenia, and how many women are involved in lobbying for that legal change you mention ?

I doubt any wo0men would be. I think it's some countries which are trying to get sharia law - Nigeria probably. I'd have to check and a few others - you need 2 women to equal the weight of a man in court but the sad thing is their law currently is fair and they are seeking to change it so it's unfair, going backwards, in my terms anyway. I don't see why it's patronising to explain what I mean by feminism.

I think Iranian and Saudi women would like to have equal rights. And, I'm sure many more Middle Eastern countries. But, supressing women is not solely a Sharia (Islamic) trait. The chinese do it. The Japanese do it. Even the West still does it to some extent. But, there are of course much worse places for women on this planet.

Yellowrose, why do you say that this thread is proof that feminism is dead or dying?

xenia, i didn't mean that your definition of feminism was patronising, i am more concerned about why you sometimes suggest (in other posts on other threads too) that women in other countries may not wish for or push for the sorts of rights we are enjoying here in the UK (although of course the UK is far from perfect). they do push for it.

what i meant about feminism being dead is that women seem to spend so much time having to EXPLAIN their choices, etc. whether those choices are seen as PURE feminism (and who defines pure feminism any way ? there is no such thing) - it distracts from the real issues.

i find the article patronising, a dictat. i don't have to do what some women who has her own very personal definition of the "woman's struggle" tells me to do, simply because i think she is wrong and as long as women get pregnant and have babies, they should have the RIGHT and CHOICE to stay at home

And I would add to a woman's right and choice to stay at home and care for her child(ren) - a child's right to be cared for by his or her mother.

eleusis is right - it is not just sharia law that takes away certain rights - sharia law is imposed and interpreted by men of course - it is applied differently in different countries though.

Women in Muslim countries have had the right to own property/own and run businesses since the 7th century. Several of Muhammed's wives were merchants and wealthy land owners (partly the reason he married them, they came from more powerful/wealthier families than he did).

Many women still live under patriarchal systems incl. countries that are considered as modern, progressive, politically advanced and at the highest levels of industrilaisation: Japan is a very good example

quite anna - we seem to forget the rights of children in this debate.

anna, I guessed you were taking the piss, what puzzles me is how you expect your views on childrens and mothers rights to be taken seriuosly when you have created and posted this fantasy life of a beautiful, rich, pretty, parisian mum, with an adored, clever, beautiful daughter, etc etc.

To me the minute you went down the route of 'I have private income, I'm very pretty' you lost all credibility in your posts. I strongly suspect you are just trying to rile people and that you deliberatly chose the word institution to wind things up a bit and that your views on mothers being important for children whilst fathers are just the wgae earners are equally made up.

You certianly have a rich imagination, but maybe people would take you more seriuosly if you posted about real life?

SJ - I was taking the piss because Xenia is SO competitive (and she actually responded to the crap on being slim, pretty etc... because she really cares about those things, she's in that competition).

The way I spend my day is totally true - but so would you if you lived here. Actually, there are real practical downsides to the shopping here - I'd love a Waitrose, if you want food of that quality here you HAVE to go to little shops and street markets. They are oh-so-quaint when you have masses of time, but much less so when you are working (very) full time (as I have done most of my life). And not as much fun in winter in the rain as in the summer, as I am sure you can imagine. I CANNOT take a car and go to a shopping centre - I live in central Paris and there are no shopping centres here. Sometimes the medievalness of it all really gets me down.

As for "institution" - that is the word used in English (as you will also have seen from the link yesterday to the article on the BBC website which I had not seen before posting). The French word is much, much worse - collectivité. That, to my mind, sounds like the USSR. But they use it, all the time - nursery is called "la vie en collectivité". Horrible, horrible.

So I'm not winding anybody up on that one - actually, I think we all need to look hard at those issues. I know there are excellent nurseries for toddlers in the UK - one of my aunt's neighbours in Kent has a fantastic one on a farm, with a pony, a big garden, ducks, chickens etc. But I don't think that all (or most) children are that lucky. One of Xenia's recurrent themes is that if childcare were cheaper all women could work. I refute that argument, because I live in a cheap childcare economy where the quality of childcare is often abysmal.

SJ - and I never said anything anywhere about "fathers being just the wage earners".

My partner is the wage earner, but he does a lot for his children. As I think all fathers should.

SJ - another thing (sorry).

I do post about real life. There are lots and lots and lots of "real lives". People's realities are very different from one another's. That's why I don't buy the polarised one-size-fits-all argument of Xenia's that all women should work all the time in professional careers.

see thats real;

"Actually, there are real practical downsides to the shopping here - I'd love a Waitrose, if you want food of that quality here you HAVE to go to little shops and street markets. They are oh-so-quaint when you have masses of time, but much less so when you are working (very) full time (as I have done most of my life). And not as much fun in winter in the rain as in the summer, as I am sure you can imagine. I CANNOT take a car and go to a shopping centre - I live in central Paris and there are no shopping centres here. Sometimes the medievalness of it all really gets me down."

it was the way you were portraying your life as perfect and wondeful and in a way using that to make the point that all women should stay home with the kids because obviuosly they would then have that type of life.

I do still take issue with your view of daycare however. DS has been to 3 nurseries here and they are ALL fantastic! There are 2 others in walk/bike distance which are also great.

They're not on a farm (not sure i would want DS in daycare on a farm tbh) but they all ahve outdoor space, lovely bright rooms, caring staff and comfy sleeping areas.

I've visited nurseries here (7 in total) and my parents home town (3) in my friends town (2) and in london (2). Of those only 1 had bad points - and it was still nowhere near as bad as the one you describe.

I also think the fact that your DD goes to school aged 3 makes a big difference to your view,
You are using your own expereince (private income, french museums, one chld only, GP's who are alive and retired etc, french TV, french nurseries, French schooling system) to comment on childcare and motherhood in general in a completly different country.

Maybe you ought to listen a bit more to the experiences of parents in the UK before you make sweeping statements about daycare v homelife?

But SJ - I DIDN'T make sweeping statements, that's my whole point.

I described my reality, which is NOT compatible with Xenia one-size-fits-all solution. That's all.

SJ - really, read me again, I have NOTHING against working women and children being properly looked after in high quality childcare. You are reading into my defence of SAHM a criticism of WOHM that I never made.

SJ - why wouldn't you want your children in daycare on a farm, by the way?

Living in a city centre, I have to make a huge effort to ensure my daughter understands that she is an animal and relates properly to nature and animals. I try to take her to farms as often as possible, especially where there are baby animals like kids, lambs and piglets where she can see them suckling and relate her experience of breastfeeding to other mammals. I just wish it was more frequent and that she could see animals giving birth, mating etc.

STOP saying "SJ" - its making me paranoid! I have work to do and its making check this thread to see what I've done now.

Some people don't like exposure to animals because they can be dirty and carry a lot of diseases. I know some childminders have trouble selling the resident dog to potential clients.