Yet another article re: why mothers should return to work

[boogiewoogie]

Just snatching a couple of minutes during a coffee break, will come back. What do you think of this?

I think that often children like their time at nursery. I'm not getting into the sahm/wohm debate but I think that "paid care" really doesn't describe what a nanny or childminder does. It's not some Victorian baby minding service. When it works, the children have a really good positive relationship with their carers. It's not maternal love but it is affection and interest and responsibility and good times and learning.

Research again please Anna - where is the evidence of this verbal difference?

But Soapbox (quite apart from the fact that I couldn't possibly read the DM - not exported - and I read the FT and the Economist - I never took sides. Read for yourself.

anna - i have read what you have said and you are clearly taking sides - you didn't apologise for the comment or attempt to see why it may be construed as offensive or untrue which i think sums up your mindset ...

Soapbox - I'm talking about ONE school. Actually, there is another, very similar school, which has the same findings and issues.

I hate it when mothers are made to feel guilty when they choose to send their toddler to a nursery where they will

• learn to mix with other children and learn important social skills
• pick up some educational basics
• learn to be a bit independent from mum and home
• be stimulated and have fun in a safe, purpose built for fun, environment with qualified staff.

How is that a bad thing. They still have plenty of time at home and with parents but alos get to do other things. I only see nursery as a real positive for my kids and even if I wasn't a WOHM I'd still send my kids to nursery.

My Dd is with achildminder and I'm looking into nurseries for her as well.
I consider this a good thing I'm foing for my DD.

I found one yesterday that does all the usual stuff, plus yoga and music/dance/drama and baisc Frenmch lessons! I think thta's great and if I can afford it I'm going for it, I think it's fab.

Ah well then - it could just be more 'judgemental' than fact based.

I agree NK - Anna's suggestion that nursery is a better option where staying home with an unstimulating mother is the alternative is wide of the mark. Shared care gives some benefits which cannot be gained at home - such as learning to make friends independently and general social skills.

Actually, Taylor, I find the fact that you are so sensitive to it a little strange.

School is an institution.
Most workplaces are institions.
The NHS is an institution.
The European Commission is an institution.

etc etc

We are nearly all affected by those institutions every day of our lives.

I agree TeeCee - we'll be getting a nanny before long, but I intend to send my daughter to nursery sometimes as well. I see it as a real positive.

anna - i am not sensitive i am angry - i took exception to the inference of your sentence "Also, mother-raised children and institutionally-raised children are different from one another." - i don't like the implication in that sentence and i think it is clear why.

Anna - afaiac, you can chose to do whatever makes you and your family happy. I ahve no issue with that at all.

What I take issue with is when you try to justify your choice to others by asserting that it is the 'best' choice. It may be the best choice for you and your family, but may not be for any one else's family.

All of the arguments which you have presented to justify your decision, have not held up to scrutiny, and are certainly not based on facts or research based evidence. As such it remains your own personal choice - which of course you are fully at liberty to take.

"Institutionalised" is an incredibly loaded term - makes me think of babies in orphanages starved of affection, rocking themselves for comfort. I think that's why people are objecting to it.

what lasting verbal differences?

And you do know that children are allowed home from nurseries, Anna? Children are also mother-raised if they're in nursery.

how old are your children Anna?

you see most people responding here have children in school and can tell you honestly that there are no differences between children who have nannies, who have been in nurseries, children who have au pairs, childminders, children looked after by their mums or dad or other relatives.

What situations re bilingualism? You're making massively offensive sweeping statements without backing them up - don't you know that's a crime on MN?!

Hunkermunker. "institutionalised" is a grim word. It makes me think of those horrible stories about elderly people who were sent to psychiatric wards when they were 15 and never released till years later. Or as you said Eastern bloc orphanages.

But Plibble - you get all those benefits when you are with your mother as well, unless your mother is totally negligent. My daughter goes to the park, she sees masses of other children of different ages since her brothers are 9 and 11, plus we have loads of friends with children of different ages that we see all the time, we go away a lot to stay with other families etc.

And social skills - my daughter is always out and about, she is really good at talking to all sorts of people, she says please and thank you and hello and goodbye etc, she can dress herself and tidy up.

We NEVER watch TV, for example. Today she has gone out with her grandmother on her own and they'll do different things to the things I do etc etc and next week we'll be on holiday with another family with three children and the week after that at my parents and then a friend is coming to stay for a week with her two children and they we're going to Amsterdam to see my sister with her three children. It's not boring for either of us, my daughter's always travelling and seeing new places, not stuck indoors in the same place all day.

It's great when people have different views. The true facts are that women have always had to work and always will and that in the UK most women do work as do most fathers. Most children do fine. That's all there is to it. This book is helpful but is about 0.01% pro working mothers where all the rest of the stuff churned out is all about how it's better if children have a mother at home. It gets a bit much when most women do work and yet all the time we're told children suffer for it when actually that isn't true as we can all see observing our own children so I'm glad this author has written her book just as I'm also glad we live in a free enough country that people can publish books with other views.

I would be bored to tears at home without a job and unhappy and my children wouldn't benefit. I have children up to age 22 so I can show the real life examples which mothers of under 5s can't as they are just at the starting point stage. Loads of children of working mothers, many mumsnet posters do fine.

The nursery/home thing is not at all clear. In the UK we had a study showing children who had been to nursery showed advantages over others. I liked the babies at home with a nanny until they were neaerly 3 and went to a morning nursery school and that is obviously cheaper if you have 3 under 5s as we had anyway and helps if you have sickeness issues but I don't think nurseries damage children. Obviously terribly drunk mothers who shout at children all day and hit them (there are many) and terrible nurseries where children are strapped to chairs all day are not going to be very good for children but the latter are rare. I suspect the former are more common than we think because for many people, male or female 10 hours a day alone with a child is too stressful an existence and not the right choice for them.

Or racism in the Metropolitan Police Force. A loaded term, that's for sure!

Boarding school at 4 which we used to do here is institutionalised. Going to school each day or nursery is in one sense of the word but we all institutionalise anyway - in a sense it's what we do with children - we train them to fit into a box which says you sleep at night, get up, try to behave, eat at meal times, say please and thank you. It's all about institutionalisation and having more adults in children's lives whether it's grannies like Anna's or a nanny or nursery school like ours is a good thing as they see different rules and views so get a broader outlook.

Soapbox - I NEVER said that my choice was the best choice. I'm just saying it's a VALID choice.

okay I havn't read the whole thread after my first post but this:
" her adult life is so empty of feeling that work is the only way she can think of to fill her existence"

is hugely offensive, not only to Xenia but to any woman or man who enjoys their work. My adult life, my moms adult life, DH adult life and the other poeple I know who are parents but work outside the home are NOT empty of feeling? You are making a huge statement that anyone's ability to feel (by which I assume you mean care/love) is based on some criteria of how much time they spend with their kids, or whether they have a job or not. I hate this stereotype - that women who work are uncaring, hollow and career focused.

I also think the 'raised at home with love' v 'raised in an institution by people who are paid to do the job' argument is incredibly niave.

Firstly not all children are raised with love at home.

but leaving that minor point aside, nursery, childminder, school, etc may be an insitution rather than a domestic home in the broadest sense of the word but it is a very inflamatery word to use and I suspect that whoever first posted that, knew it was an offensive word.

Why is there an assumption that just because you are paid to do a job you don't enjoy it, arent' good at it, and can't bring love and caring into your role? (which links to the point about how mothers who work are viewed)

I think a good nursery can enhance most childrens and their families life.

It teaches them all sorts of good things about sharing and interaction, it provides a gentle introduction to social settings prior to school. It gives them the chance to do things they might not be able to do at home - for example we dont' have a sandpit and waterplay at home; or a big castle/slide to play on (no space)

It gives us as adults time out to focus on routine (clean all the floors) / dangerous (mend the broken glass door) household jobs without worrying about DS getting bored/hurt.

It enables us both to study/ do personal development so that we increase our ability to take good jobs and request flexible working.

It enables us both to earn and have an economic contribution to the family and our future.

but hey, looking up the thread its obviuos that this has degnerted into another WOHP v SAHP thread.

shrugs love my job, love having time to myself, enjoy our family time, like earning money, and would never enter into a partnership where my partner would refuse to stay at home to care for OUR child because it would 'feminise' him!

boy i'm glad this is 2007 and I don't have to be relient on Mr Bearhunter to bring home the bacon every night.

Nurseries offer something that children can't get at home which is the chance to do something without your mother around. And - even though it costs me a pang to say it - children often enjoy that. There comes a point when they like to be separated for a while and make something "for" mummy rather than "with" mummy.