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Can we discuss ANTIFA, Nazis and free speech?

145 replies

AssignedPerfectAtBirth · 26/08/2017 14:26

I am somewhat confused about Antifa and their recent activism, particularly in Charlottesville. On the one hand I do believe that there is a line to be drawn somewhere in the case of Nazi activism. But I am struggling with the use of violence. I know the Anti-Facist League has existed in the UK for many years, but they were very much on the periphery. Am I right in thinking that such movements are relatively new in the US?

Should Nazis and white supremacists ever have a right to organise, march, make speeches or should they be battered off the streets? Where does the right of free speech end?

I have some issues with Antifa. The debate is so polarised and many rightwingers are being tossed into the same pot as white supremacists and Nazis by some of the MSM, which can't be a good thing.

Thoughts anyone?

OP posts:
CSLewis · 31/08/2017 13:23

And for the record, the march in Charlottesville was 100% legal. They had applied for, and been given, a permit to assemble.

MadgeMidgerson · 31/08/2017 13:28

It is interesting to hear the police officer so concerned that some people may have acid - I'd love to see independent confirmation of this btw.

where was their concern over the nazis who showed up armed with assault rifles and baseball bats?

It is also worth noting that this police officer's concerns about what could have happened in Charlottesville omit to mention what did happen.

A white supremacist drove his car at speed into a crowd of people, murdering one of them.

OCSockOrphanage · 31/08/2017 13:29

Titanz, surely extreme views from either end of the spectrum are equally dangerous, and objectionable, when they advocate or use physical violence?

CSLewis · 31/08/2017 13:31

Also worth watching this interview, to see the media's utter inability to be impartial and hear other facets of the issue:

Titanz · 31/08/2017 13:34

OC

Of course! I haven't seen AntiFa kill anyone yet though like the other side have.

MadgeMidgerson · 31/08/2017 13:37

The other side are well over 6 million murders ahead.

I hardly think Fox News consitutes a credible news source

CSLewis · 31/08/2017 13:40

A white supremacist drove his car at speed into a crowd of people, murdering one of them.

Have you actually watched the footage of what happened, Madge? Particularly from behind the car in question?

The car was travelling slowly down the street, UNTIL an Antifa protester swung a baseball bat at the back of the car and smashed the back lights out - at which point the driver accelerates away and the collision occurs. Then a load of protestors surround the car in a menacing manner, some masked, some armed with bats and bottles, at which point the driver reverses at speed to get away, colliding with several other people in the process.

I've watched it, and it doesn't look intentional to me. Of course, it's irrelevant what we think happened, as there will be a trial, followed by a verdict, and until that point I'm sure we all agree that 'Innocent until proven guilty' should apply to all, including those we don't like. Or perhaps not...?

CSLewis · 31/08/2017 13:41

I hardly think Fox News consitutes a credible news source

Why not? Because they don't deal in your particular brand of bias?

Would you care to give us a list of what you believe to be 'credible news sources'?

MadgeMidgerson · 31/08/2017 13:45

one might wonder why you seem so deeply invested in defending white supremacy, and now, it would seem, murder.

I personally think it's obvious...

CSLewis · 31/08/2017 13:48

I was mistaken about the speed at which the car was travelling. Other cars were driving slowly down the street; James Fields was definitely driving too fast, but that does not make him a murderer.

Titanz · 31/08/2017 13:49

Madge in fairness thats a pretty poor reply, either debate what the person has said or don't, not make comments like that to divert away from the discussion.

OCSockOrphanage · 31/08/2017 13:52

Not sure I can give you the six million ahead one, Madge. Stalin managed to eliminate an estimated 20 million kulaks and Mao made decent inroads into the educated population during the Cultural Revolution, not to mention the Khmer Rouge's tally during the Killing Fields.

So, is mass murder more acceptable when committed on those who disagree with your ideas, or are wealthier, or more educated than you?

Titanz · 31/08/2017 13:52

I had not seen that video CSLewis. It paints a different light to be honest. It shows how much we are influenced by media narratives, I'm always disappointed but not shocked when i'm caught up in one.

MadgeMidgerson · 31/08/2017 13:55

I will say this - I never in my wildest dreams ever thought that I would see people openly defending fascism, and framing their defenses as tributes to free speech

it certainly has become acceptable to hold these sorts of views it would seem

CSLewis · 31/08/2017 13:55

"one might wonder why you seem so deeply invested in defending white supremacy,"

I'm not defending anyone. I'm trying to have a reasoned discussion about something. You are refusing to actually engage with what anyone is saying, preferring to sling insults and accusations.

I'm not the one who gave them the Permit to Assemble. Perhaps you could direct some of your ire at the Charlottesville civic authorities, who gave them permission to march, and then conspicuously failed to preserve and enforce Law and Order. They 'gave them a platform' - something you seem to vigorously object to.

MadgeMidgerson · 31/08/2017 13:57

In light of the OP's question,

Should Nazis and white supremacists ever have a right to organise, march, make speeches or should they be battered off the streets? Where does the right of free speech end?

what exactly is your position?

CSLewis · 31/08/2017 13:57

...and there you go again: "people openly defending fascism".

When? Where? Who? Please provide direct quotes.

Titanz · 31/08/2017 14:00

Madge you've just done it again, instead of debating you've made emotive outcries, anyone who doesnt agree with you must condone white supremacy, murder and fascism. That's not how it works.

Questioning AntiFa doesn't mean you're for fascism.

OCSockOrphanage · 31/08/2017 14:00

Where on this thread have you seen people defend fascism?

MadgeMidgerson · 31/08/2017 14:01

Again, I would ask-

In light of the OP's question,

Should Nazis and white supremacists ever have a right to organise, march, make speeches or should they be battered off the streets? Where does the right of free speech end?

what exactly is your position?

CSLewis · 31/08/2017 14:06

In America, they have this thing called the First Amendment, which guarantees 5 basic freedoms, one of them being the right to Free Speech.

There are exceptions to the First Amendment, which are written into law:

There are basically nine categories:
• Obscenity
• Fighting words
• Defamation (including libel and slander)
• Child pornography
• Perjury
• Blackmail
• Incitement to imminent lawless action
• True threats
• Solicitations to commit crimes

My personal position is entirely irrelevant to this discussion. I'd expect American judicial authorities to enforce the law as it exists in their country, in an even-handed and reasonable fashion, on leftists and 'right-ists' alike.

MadgeMidgerson · 31/08/2017 14:08

Oh. Well, given your assertion that personal options are irrelevant, I guess that's the thread done then.

CSLewis · 31/08/2017 14:10

As it means so much to you: my personal view on "where should the right to Free Speech end" would probably be at the point at which the speech explicitly incited personal hatred or physical violence towards an individual or a group.

CSLewis · 31/08/2017 14:12

Though I repeat - my personal opinion (or anyone else's, for that matter) is not what this thread is about. We are having or trying to have a theoretical discussion. With you, Madge, it's uphill work.

ReanimatedSGB · 31/08/2017 14:12

"Antifa 'may' have had acid". White supremacists did have guns.
Once again, the only people murdered so far in the current resurgence of fascism have been murdered by fascists. The antifa have yet to kill or even seriously assault anyone.

There's an awful lot of guff in the press about how unpopular figures are being 'silenced' because a couple of student unions failed to invite them to speak (usually these articles are written by these 'voiceless' people, in national newspapers.)

There's also some very interesting stuff about how search engines and algorhythms are being played by far-right wackjobs (Breitbart and co) - random search terms are more likely to bring up rightwing-biased news 'stories' than progressive ones.

Finally, that asshat Google employee was fired because he used company time and company equipment to bring his employer into disrepute, and serve him right. His bullshit would also have caused ongoing disruption in the workplace if they hadn't sacked him - how could any manager assign any BAME people or women to work with someone who had publicly stated that they were incompetent and inferior?

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