Can we discuss ANTIFA, Nazis and free speech?

[AssignedPerfectAtBirth]

I am somewhat confused about Antifa and their recent activism, particularly in Charlottesville. On the one hand I do believe that there is a line to be drawn somewhere in the case of Nazi activism. But I am struggling with the use of violence. I know the Anti-Facist League has existed in the UK for many years, but they were very much on the periphery. Am I right in thinking that such movements are relatively new in the US?

Should Nazis and white supremacists ever have a right to organise, march, make speeches or should they be battered off the streets? Where does the right of free speech end?

I have some issues with Antifa. The debate is so polarised and many rightwingers are being tossed into the same pot as white supremacists and Nazis by some of the MSM, which can't be a good thing.

Thoughts anyone?

Last time I'll engage with you, Madge, as it's clearly a waste of time.

" are you really arguing that nazis are only violent when provoked by anti fascists? truly?

yikes"

If you read the words I've actually written, really carefully, you'll see I haven't argued any such thing. But you know that already.

OC, that Atlantic article is very interesting. For those who don't have the time to read the whole thing, here are the last couple of paragraphs:

"Antifa believes it is pursuing the opposite of authoritarianism. Many of its activists oppose the very notion of a centralized state. But in the name of protecting the vulnerable, antifascists have granted themselves the authority to decide which Americans may publicly assemble and which may not. That authority rests on no democratic foundation. Unlike the politicians they revile, the men and women of antifa cannot be voted out of office. Generally, they don’t even disclose their names.

Antifa’s perceived legitimacy is inversely correlated with the government’s. Which is why, in the Trump era, the movement is growing like never before. As the president derides and subverts liberal-democratic norms, progressives face a choice. They can recommit to the rules of fair play, and try to limit the president’s corrosive effect, though they will often fail. Or they can, in revulsion or fear or righteous rage, try to deny racists and Trump supporters their political rights. From Middlebury to Berkeley to Portland, the latter approach is on the rise, especially among young people."

Something else worth a read lifehacker.com/how-to-recognize-russian-propaganda-on-social-media-1798503783

That is very interesting SGB, thank you.

The car was travelling slowly down the street, UNTIL an Antifa protester swung a baseball bat at the back of the car and smashed the back lights out - at which point the driver accelerates away and the collision occurs. Then a load of protestors surround the car in a menacing manner, some masked, some armed with bats and bottles, at which point the driver reverses at speed to get away, colliding with several other people in the process.

I watched the videos multiple times, including frame by frame. The car was not travelling slowly (although within the speed limit as far as people can work out from distance travelled over time), it was travelling at an unreasonable speed considering the circumstances (people in the street) directly towards the crowd which the driver could not fail to see. One man struck, or attempted to strike (its not clear whether the pole made contact but it certainly did not smash the back lights out) the car while it was already in the process of driving into a crowd of people. It was just seconds before the car hit the crowd, killing one and injuring many others, its just not possible for someone to react quickly enough for that pole strike to have made any difference to what Fields was already doing.

People did attack the car after he had already driven into them and I cannot blame them for that - if a terrorist drove into a crowd you were a part of it wouldn't you be pretty pissed off and want to stop them from causing more harm? There are no excuses for what Fields did, none whatsoever.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-46490492

Still defending the Nazi scum, @CSLewis?

I’m on the left in the US. I find the white supremacist movement abhorrent and the use of firearms in their marches in some states a terrifying step backwards. But Antifa are no better ther than that they tend not to use guns.

I’ve seen Antifa at work on several marches - they choose who they want to defend, who they want to attack and who they ignore. They’re also terrifying. They are a violent group with their own agenda which is not answerable to the wider community. They don’t help the left, they just make the left more like the fascist right.

Sorry - just seen that this is a zombie thread.

so you delete my posts but not the person defending a murderous white supremacist. and i cant believe boomboom you actually think antifa are as bad as actual fucking nazis. how many crowds have antifa driven a car through? how many schools synagogues and pizza restaurants have they shot up? how many deaths is that shitstain richard spencer responisble for?

You shouldn't believe I think Antifa are as bad as actual Nazis, not least because I didn't say that.

you literally said antifa are no better

I compared them to the white supremacist movement as a whole, not just Nazis. And I said other than that they don't tend to use guns. Which is a pretty big difference when it comes to things like shooting up synagogues and pizza restaurants.

so there no better except that they are. make up your mind. and many of those white supremacists are nazis

Antifa and Nazis are two sides of the same coin. You try to suppress one and you fuel the other. I think free speech has been lost in this country, if any one says anything someone doesn't like you get 'labelled' racists, sexist, trans-phobic (or any other label).

We need to somehow accept that people do not have a right to stop anything that someone somewhere says they find offensive.

We already have blackshirts on our streets, disrupting political gatherings and breaking heads with bikelocks. All completely ignored by the media.

It's obvious what they are and what they are modelled on.

Nazis are on the extreme far right, so if right wingers are being labelled as Nazis they most likely have Nazi/alt-right views because someone who doesn't agree with government handouts is very different to someone who believes that a person of a different colour, creed or sexual orientation doesn't deserve the same rights as them.

Also - No, they shouldn't have a platform, any body of belief that exists to eliminate/exterminate parts of society should never be given a platform IMO. Universities, a place celebrated for intelligent sharing of ideas understand that. Well they did in my day.

Nazis stands for National Socialists.

Note the socialist.

Indeed the actual nazis, and bear in mind I am quite old and have never met one, recruited the vast majority of their paid up members from the Communist and Socialist movements in pre-war Germany.