Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

News

Charlie Gard 12

999 replies

muckypup73 · 19/07/2017 11:58

This is a thread following the legal and ethical questions raised by the recent court case involving Charlie Gard.

Please could we refrain from insulting or otherwise "bashing" his parents. It isn't in the spirit of Mumsnet and will get the threads removed.

Please could we also remember that at the heart of this case is a terminally ill baby and his heartbroken parents. There are those participating in and watching this thread for whom these issues are painful. Please let's try and be mindful of them when we post. This isn't a place for name calling or trivialising the very real pain they feel. Many parents of severely disabled children are on here.

Lastly, here are some hopefully useful reference points of facts surrounding the case.

13 July GOSH position statement on latest hearing (includes update on Charlie's condition):
www.gosh.nhs.uk/file/23611/download?token=aTPZchww

7 July GOSH statement on Charlie:
www.gosh.nhs.uk/news/latest-press-releases/latest-statement-charlie-gard

June 2017 Supreme Court decision:

May 2017 Court of Appeal Decision:
www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Civ/2017/410.html

April 2017 High Court Decision:
www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Fam/2017/972.html

GOSH FAQ page on Charlie:
www.gosh.nhs.uk/frequently-asked-questions-about-charlie-gard-court-case

OP posts:
nocoolnamesleft · 20/07/2017 20:26

Musing a bit - feel free to ignore.

I do think part of all this is that, as a society, we have become so much more divorced from death. When my grandma was young, most people died at home. They were laid out by relatives. The body was placed in the front parlour, for people to come pay their respects. Wakes were often open casket.

Not all that long before that...well, go look round a graveyard. All the gravestones of adults, with added on the lists of their children who died in infancy.

We are lucky as a society that the natural course of events for a baby is to become an adult. That was not always the case. But...for the tragic minority where sanitation, and immunisation, and nutrition, and all the advances in medical science, cannot save them, I think the trauma is even greater, as it is an isolating near-taboo experience, rather than what used to be a terrible bond between so many parents. And because the death of a child has, thank goodness, become so much rarer for us, I get the impression that quite a lot of people live in denial that it can ever happen, because that is so much more comfortable. That "only happens" in poorer countries, or to children from poor areas, or if you did something wrong. Which is clearly bollocks. But if you can believe that children of people like you can never die, as long as you just fight hard enough...then that means your child is safe.

I am so grateful to live now, not earlier in history, for so many reasons. Partly because I would definitely have died as a child. But also because I hate children dying. But doctors are not playing god. If we are to use those terms, god plays god, and we're just desperately trying to alter the odds.

TinselTwins · 20/07/2017 20:29

I think there's quite a bit of hypothesising here about what exactly the meaning of the words of the thunderclap are.

Yes, but if you combine it with Laura and Connies comments on the Sun Newspapers facebook page it does sound like they've given up on the court proceedings, and have maybe been sat down and told something they dont wanna hear.

muckypup73 · 20/07/2017 20:32

MirandaWest, we know what a thunderclap is, its what they use ti promote awareness of Autism, its the words that went with it.

OP posts:
oakleaffy · 20/07/2017 20:36

A CA member is advising that they now use their religious rights:/

Remember your religious rights and exercise them to the latter...just like the people who refuse blood transfusions on religious grounds ..you have the same religious rights...ours is that we can't take a life just because someone is less than perfect

Religious rights... WHY did I not think of that.

Our religion does not allow us to take a life in any circumstance, I don't understand why they are not fighting it on them grounds...

Jehovas' witness parents can rightly be overruled and their children given blood transfusions in UK..plus there was a Muslim family who had to be taken to court to allow their babies to have palliative care.

muckypup73 · 20/07/2017 20:37

It shows you how low people are. the petition????? Shell Walker Signed 3 times

OP posts:
MirandaWest · 20/07/2017 20:40

I may not have conveyed what I wanted to - I just find the idea behind that particular thunderclap hard to understand.

GabsAlot · 20/07/2017 20:42

i thought th final hearing was monday

lg does sound very young anyon know how old she is

muckypup73 · 20/07/2017 20:42

MirandaWest, the thunderclap was designed to promote AAutism awareness, charlies army are using it for their cause which may leave people confused, I think charlies army have their answer now and are clutching at straws because to me Laura Gard has made it very clear that the usa doctor agress with Gosh, I will eat my words if I am wrong.

OP posts:
muckypup73 · 20/07/2017 20:43

LG early 20's I reckon.

OP posts:
LetsGoFlyAKiteee · 20/07/2017 20:44

muckypup73 person even says you can sign multiple times..that's not the way it works! Plus it's pointless..there's also posts of people saying they hope the Judge sees the banner and posts on the group...why?!

muckypup73 · 20/07/2017 20:46

Thanks LetsGoFlyAKiteee person lol, no its not the way it works, nothing Charlies army can do now can change anything, so it does not make a difference really, they can shout,scream,protest,sign as much as they like, it aint gonna change anything.

OP posts:
oakleaffy · 20/07/2017 20:46

Nocoolnamesleft Great thoughts there.
We are now so divorced from death as a society..I was middle aged before I saw a dead body, simply as had been protected from seeing them.
When Dad died, I was surprised how peaceful he looked, being as he was terrified of death.
He had witnessed deaths himself, but had a real fear of dying/illness/death himself.
A retired Nurse I know said she always opened the window to let the Spirit out, and laid out her patients lovingly.
She does not fear death..and her family chose to turn off the life support of a much loved child too. :(

muckypup73 · 20/07/2017 20:47

I am just looking at a picture on Laura Gards profile of Charlie, and its awful, he is so puffed up, whilst C&C are by his bedside.

OP posts:
LetsGoFlyAKiteee · 20/07/2017 20:48

The wording on it is alwful!

Against the requests of his parents, the doctors at Great Ormond Street Hospital have decided that Charlie would be better off dead

Then goes onto say the note you write will be passed onto the hospital..wherever that's true or not but if it is what?!?!

I, and the entire international community, will be outraged if you kill Charlie Gard

Just....

oakleaffy · 20/07/2017 20:50

letsgoflyakitee...I'm sure the Judge spends his time lurking on the CA pages :/ but that is what C.A think...he won't even see the banners either, or be swayed by them.

MsHooliesCardigan · 20/07/2017 20:50

nocool I agree with that. I live very near a Victorian cemetery and there are so many graves of children and babies
I posted earlier about attending the funeral of a Jamaican lady and, at the end of the service,the coffin was opened and people were invited to come and say goodbye. None of the white people present went up.

muckypup73 · 20/07/2017 20:52

oakleaffy, I sent a message to Gosh telling them to get someone on Ca page to see what was going on and I hope they did, and after all thats happening it would not actually surprise me if the judge went ont the page,or got someone to go on it for him, just to see exactly how much Ca are slating Gosh.

OP posts:
ZaphodBeeblerox · 20/07/2017 20:52

I think the trauma is even greater, as it is an isolating near-taboo experience, rather than what used to be a terrible bond between so many parents. And because the death of a child has, thank goodness, become so much rarer for us, I get the impression that quite a lot of people live in denial that it can ever happen, because that is so much more comfortable. That "only happens" in poorer countries, or to children from poor areas, or if you did something wrong. Which is clearly bollocks. But if you can believe that children of people like you can never die, as long as you just fight hard enough...then that means your child is safe.

This is so well put nocoolnamesleft.

We do this in other areas too - if someone is a victim of assault or violence we instinctively ask where they were / what they wore etc; it's not usually meant as directly victim blaming, but rather as a self-protection mechanism. If we can pinpoint something the victim did "wrong" we can find some way to guarantee it won't happen to us.

And you're so right about childhood mortality becoming a taboo topic. When we lost our son at birth we felt so isolated... no one our age even knew how to react. It was relatives from my grandparents generation who had the right words iyswim. Because so many of them had been through something similar and could give us some comfort and ways to heal.

muckypup73 · 20/07/2017 20:54

ZaphodBeeblerox,my mother lost 2 children, one at 6 months with cot death and the other at 14 with severe cerebal palsy, she turned to booze, I dont blame her, she had a shit life.

OP posts:
Maryz · 20/07/2017 20:59

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

muckypup73 · 20/07/2017 21:01

Maryz, here here!!!!

OP posts:
magicdoll · 20/07/2017 21:02

Thank you for your Flowers everybody. I've just began maternity leave so I feel like I have too much time and emotion right now to be spending focused on this poor little boy.

I'm not sure if anybody else is anxious about this but I have an awful gut feeling that whichever way the judge decides to go on Monday there will be a huge backlash from CA.

If he decides to stick to his original decision and the entire medical team, including Dr Hirano, believe that it is finally time to let Charlie slip away then I think there will be riots as CA believe he is being murdered. On the other hand, if the decision is that this treatment may benefit Charlie and they're given the go ahead then I believe there will be riots as CA will claim that GOSH are incompetent and have been caught out as "liars".

I think that next week is going to be just terrible for everybody Sad

BubblesBuddy · 20/07/2017 21:04

I do think that if you stoke up a train, it runs away with you. In this case fuelled by relatives. There may well have been a directions meeting at court today.

Sostenueto · 20/07/2017 21:04

Well think I must have been blocked cos I can't even find Laura gards fb anywhere?

Ellie56 · 20/07/2017 21:05

If the judge decides to uphold his original decision, I hope he insists life support is withdrawn next week, no hanging on for Charlie's birthday, which will mean absolutely nothing for him.

Swipe left for the next trending thread