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Charlie Gard 12

999 replies

muckypup73 · 19/07/2017 11:58

This is a thread following the legal and ethical questions raised by the recent court case involving Charlie Gard.

Please could we refrain from insulting or otherwise "bashing" his parents. It isn't in the spirit of Mumsnet and will get the threads removed.

Please could we also remember that at the heart of this case is a terminally ill baby and his heartbroken parents. There are those participating in and watching this thread for whom these issues are painful. Please let's try and be mindful of them when we post. This isn't a place for name calling or trivialising the very real pain they feel. Many parents of severely disabled children are on here.

Lastly, here are some hopefully useful reference points of facts surrounding the case.

13 July GOSH position statement on latest hearing (includes update on Charlie's condition):
www.gosh.nhs.uk/file/23611/download?token=aTPZchww

7 July GOSH statement on Charlie:
www.gosh.nhs.uk/news/latest-press-releases/latest-statement-charlie-gard

June 2017 Supreme Court decision:

May 2017 Court of Appeal Decision:
www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Civ/2017/410.html

April 2017 High Court Decision:
www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Fam/2017/972.html

GOSH FAQ page on Charlie:
www.gosh.nhs.uk/frequently-asked-questions-about-charlie-gard-court-case

OP posts:
Enchantedflamingo · 20/07/2017 17:15

Is some of the bloat not attributable to steroids?

0nline · 20/07/2017 17:16

MissHavishamsleftdaffodil

I agree there is a strong possibility that their sudden silence was beyond their control.

The problem with bringing a pot to a pressurised boil is you have to be absolutely certain you are always there to twiddle the various release valves as needed. And they are not in a position of certainty in that regard. There are too many factors that could pull their full attention away from the group, or leave them with their hands tied in terms of controlling it.

At this point running the group must be like trying herd cats with one hand tied behind your back and invisible trip wires on the road ahead.

Lunde · 20/07/2017 17:16

Orange lactulose is the way to go - the plain stuff is yuk - they used to serve it in shot glasses at breakfast after I had major surgery and was on morphine

NatashaGurdin · 20/07/2017 17:17

oakleaffy

''He tweets about Charlie as it was trending, after that he didn't do anything. This bill was introduced by someone else, not Trump. If you don't think he lies, you're not paying attention."

I think if you were to describe Trump as having the attention span of a gnat you'd be overstating it!

AcrossthePond55 · 20/07/2017 17:20

So no medical provider can disconnect life support.

For a patient in a PVS, not over the family's objection. If they are brain dead medical providers can petition the courts over the family's objection. See the Jahi McMath case.

But what happens when insurance won't pay? Does medicaid kick in?

If the family qualified financially for Medicaid then the hospital will help them apply for it. If they are not low income 'enough' then the family is going to pay out-of-pocket. Charlie's case would be unique because he is not a US Citizen. If he were granted Perm Res I think he would be eligible, but it depends on the State of residency. Charlie's parents would still have to meet the financial criteria and assets in the UK would be considered in determining eligibility.

Would they be paying in a case like charlie's where the parents insurance would likely have stopped paying a while back?

If the family met financial criteria, yes. But there are exceptions to payment for experimental treatment and treatments not expected to provide improvement, so some of what he's getting may not be covered. AND they could have insisted that Charlie be moved to a long-term care facility, which is usually less costly. LTCs 'maintain' the patient, they don't try to 'cure' them.

Does insurance/medicaid pay the associated costs of not being able to work? Overnight stays near the hospital? No and no. But facilities usually have a good network of social resources; R McD House, etc.

If not presumably one parent at least would need to keep working to pay the mortgage and those bills. Which, if they have an average income, again means medicaid doesn't cover? Yes, that's pretty much correct. Parents have been known to divorce for financial reasons because of this.

So in reality, if a child is in charlie's situation the parents need to find money from somewhere, and possibly bankrupt themselves in the process.

Medical care is the number one reason for bankruptcy in the US. If DH had not had 'double coverage' when he had cardiomyopathy ($225K hospital + doctors and equipment) we would have lost our home and every penny of our savings. Because he had double coverage we paid very little for his care. I think IIRC we were less than $1000 out of pocket for his care.

So while it is the parents decision, surely the financial pressure on them must be huge, so if medics think withdrawal of treatment is the right path, the financial consideration will weigh heavily into the decision.

I think that would depend on the parents. In Charlie's case I doubt it. In the McMath case, definitely not. For me, it would be quality of life above all, regardless of cost. My DH's double coverage would have paid for him on LS for the rest of his life as there is no 'lifetime cap'. When our children were young they also had 'double coverage'. But I would never, ever keep them or DH on life support in Charlie's situation. Bottom line is, some parents would consider finances, some (most) probably would not.

The gards choice of "keeping charlie alive", must be hugely different to an american parents choice of "keep terminally ill child alive and get into irretrievable debt in the process"

Honestly, I don't know if any parent would consider money before what they believed was the right thing to do. Thank God I never had to make that decision for a child and I pray I never will. My mother, brother, and I made that decision for my dad but he was 86 and was in the final stages of a neurological condition. Mum could have kept him on life support as they tried various procedures to prolong his life, she had the insurance to do it. But she knew that the time had come to let him go. They had lived and loved for over 50 years. It was the final act of her love for him. And it was an easy decision to make. She knows she'll see him again.

AcrossthePond55 · 20/07/2017 17:27

I want to clarify one thing: No hospital, no provider of care is going to tell parents/loved ones 'You can't afford this' or 'You don't want to go bankrupt' and advise them to turn off machines for that reason, even if they know it's likely that they will eat the cost because the parents won't be able to pay. They will deal with the medical aspects of care and prognosis only. They will help the family apply for extra help or Medicaid. They will give them estimates of costs if asked.

Yes, medicine here is 'big business', but the providers themselves are still human and 99.9% of them care deeply about their patients. I've seen doctors, nurses, and social workers go to the wall with insurance companies and hospital administrators to fight for the care they want to provide.

BeyondDrinksAndKnowsThings · 20/07/2017 17:28

I have two laxido/movicol sachets (bleugh) a day, mixed up with a sachet of fybogel (love the taste of that one).
And that's before I add morphine into the mix!!

BeyondDrinksAndKnowsThings · 20/07/2017 17:29

Sorry, forgot to refresh before posting

WeDoNotSow · 20/07/2017 17:43

A PP mentioned bankruptcy, I'm pretty sure that illness is the biggest cause of bankruptcy in the USA.

BubblesBuddy · 20/07/2017 17:46

Well, luckily for us, it's one less problem we have to think about!!!

muckypup73 · 20/07/2017 18:07

oakleaffy, Fibogel makes me think of semen full of tea leaves, yeackkk

OP posts:
grannytomine · 20/07/2017 18:10

Am I being cynical in thinking it would be possible for 'someone' to just pull the babies eyelids open for the short time it takes for a picture?

I think that is a vile allegation to make. Who would pull a baby's eyelids open and do you think they would stay open?

oakleaffy · 20/07/2017 18:12

Interesting about illness in U.S.A causing bankruptcy..There was an avid collector of a specific type of antique who was known to be very well off.
He began to sell off his collection, and it was said it was to pay medical bills for a much- loved family member.
Another friend, also American, developed cancer and hewas 'lucky' enough to have been in the Services so had free medical treatment.
He said had he not Served, he'd be in deep doo doo.
As it was, he chose to not have any more treatments, and died peacefully..his decision.
Charlie cannot make such decisions, bless him.
Goodness knows how his Nurses/doctors feel. It must be so despairing for them.

GabsAlot · 20/07/2017 18:12

no offence across but im glad i dont live there

of course you would pay anything to get treatment but to hav lose your house over it must be devastating

thank God for our nhs

oakleaffy · 20/07/2017 18:15

Mucky...semen full of tea leaves ? oh no....grosssss. The trick with fybogel is to mix it up in the correct volume of water, tip in the powder, stir fast, and guzzle the lot before it goes...viscous.
I will never be able to take fybogel again without your analogy in my head :)

TinselTwins · 20/07/2017 18:20

Am I being cynical in thinking it would be possible for 'someone' to just pull the babies eyelids open for the short time it takes for a picture

I think yes and no. I don't think they would do that out of stone cold manipulation/lying, but I do think that if they've convinced themselves that he can see they might think they're "helping" him to wake up and play with his toy IYKWIM. Touching his eye lids wouldn't hurt him it'ld just be like stroking his face

I once met a woman who had a profoundly disabled son who responded with just basic reflexes. She was sure he could communicate with her. He would tickle his neck to "help" him to say "yes" and "no" to her questions. in response he would twitch his head in the direction of the tickle IYKWIM. She said that yes = left twitch and no = right twitch, but as far as I could see he was only ever twitching in the direction of her tickles in a reflex-ey sort of way.

I don't think she was trying to manipulate us by insisting that her son was agreeing with her requests for him by saying "yes" this way. I think she believed it IYKWIM

I think C&C think Charlie is looking at them. Its possible that they think that they can "help" him to interact by opening his eyes for him, or his eyelids might be falling open anyway (which isn't the same as deliberate eye opening and sight) but I do not believe that they are being deliberately deceptive on this point

TinselTwins · 20/07/2017 18:22

oakleaffy, Fibogel makes me think of semen full of tea leaves, yeackkk

No
It's more like semen mixed with sand and some orange cordial!

Yamayo · 20/07/2017 18:22

I researched the Jahi McMath case after hearing about if on these threads.

It made me sick- one of the most macabre and unbelievable stories I've ever heard.

grannytomine · 20/07/2017 18:27

Touching his eye lids wouldn't hurt him it'ld just be like stroking his face Not quite the same as pulling his eyes open though is it?

smilingmind · 20/07/2017 18:32

I find fibogel totally disgusting and much prefer lactulose.

TinselTwins · 20/07/2017 18:33

Touching his eye lids wouldn't hurt him it'ld just be like stroking his face Not quite the same as pulling his eyes open though is it?

You don't need to "pull" eyelids open especially on someone who isn't consciously controlling them
Staff may be doing it anyway if they're coma scoring for seizures, or his yelids may be laying open anyway

it is concievable that they could be opened for him with intentions like "look mummy's here". Or they might be opened anyway. I don't think it would be wrong either way. I think the intentions behind the photo taking are genuine, if led by denial!

I DO NOT think that C&C KNOW he's blind and not doing purposful eye open , and are deliberately staging the photos in order to be deceptive.

TinselTwins · 20/07/2017 18:33

Touching his eye lids wouldn't hurt him it'ld just be like stroking his face Not quite the same as pulling his eyes open though is it?

You don't need to "pull" eyelids open especially on someone who isn't consciously controlling them
Staff may be doing it anyway if they're coma scoring for seizures, or his yelids may be laying open anyway

it is concievable that they could be opened for him with intentions like "look mummy's here". Or they might be opened anyway. I don't think it would be wrong either way. I think the intentions behind the photo taking are genuine, if led by denial!

I DO NOT think that C&C KNOW he's blind and not doing purposful eye open , and are deliberately staging the photos in order to be deceptive.

TinselTwins · 20/07/2017 18:34

Touching his eye lids wouldn't hurt him it'ld just be like stroking his face Not quite the same as pulling his eyes open though is it?

You don't need to "pull" eyelids open especially on someone who isn't consciously controlling them
Staff may be doing it anyway if they're coma scoring for seizures, or his yelids may be laying open anyway

it is concievable that they could be opened for him with intentions like "look mummy's here". Or they might be opened anyway. I don't think it would be wrong either way. I think the intentions behind the photo taking are genuine, if led by denial!

I DO NOT think that C&C KNOW he's blind and not doing purposful eye open , and are deliberately staging the photos in order to be deceptive.

Maryz · 20/07/2017 18:36

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

muckypup73 · 20/07/2017 18:37

oakleaffy, I can picture you now drinking it and thinking lol

OP posts:
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