Charlie Gard 12

[muckypup73]

This is a thread following the legal and ethical questions raised by the recent court case involving Charlie Gard.

Please could we refrain from insulting or otherwise "bashing" his parents. It isn't in the spirit of Mumsnet and will get the threads removed.

Please could we also remember that at the heart of this case is a terminally ill baby and his heartbroken parents. There are those participating in and watching this thread for whom these issues are painful. Please let's try and be mindful of them when we post. This isn't a place for name calling or trivialising the very real pain they feel. Many parents of severely disabled children are on here.

Lastly, here are some hopefully useful reference points of facts surrounding the case.

13 July GOSH position statement on latest hearing (includes update on Charlie's condition):
www.gosh.nhs.uk/file/23611/download?token=aTPZchww

7 July GOSH statement on Charlie:
www.gosh.nhs.uk/news/latest-press-releases/latest-statement-charlie-gard

June 2017 Supreme Court decision:

May 2017 Court of Appeal Decision:
www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Civ/2017/410.html

April 2017 High Court Decision:
www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Fam/2017/972.html

GOSH FAQ page on Charlie:
www.gosh.nhs.uk/frequently-asked-questions-about-charlie-gard-court-case

Sorry, read it in the Independent rather than a red top so thought it might have some factual basis:

www.independent.co.uk/news/health/charlie-gard-us-citizenship-congress-american-treatment-uk-high-court-appeal-life-support-turn-off-a7848391.html

I don't imagine they will make him a ward of court.

If the judge finds in favour of GOSH, then they have the legal power to withdraw treatment against the parent's wishes.

If the parents obstruct that, then GOSH can call the police in the same way they would if anyone unlawfully obstructed a clinical act in their hospital.

It is too horrible to contemplate though, as you say.

Can I point out that NI does not fund the NHS. It supposedly pays for pensions and social security but in reality it is simply lumped in with other tax revenue. The NHS is funded from general taxation.

I can't bring myself to think about how C&C will have to cope with seeing his ventilator be turned off when it's not what they want. I can't imagine anything more heartbreaking. It's unbearable to think of them being in that position

it's heartbreaking to imagine

I'm so angry that CA and her SIL etc haven't allowed ANY wiggle room in their "supportive" rhetoric to allow for that

They don't have to contradict her, just say "we think you were right to fight this, but now that all the facts have been explored and out in the open, it's also okay to let go now in the knowledge that you left no stone un-turned for him"
^ but they're not saying that to her

summer I wouldn't call him inexperienced at all - he's been a Recorder and then a Deputy High Court Judge for 6 years

I rang the Mail earlier to complain about the misleading headline and ended up getting put through to one of the reporters on the story.

I was vv nice (thought ranting would get me nowhere) but said I was surprised that they had run the story based on one tweet from some onscure pro-life congressman. Told her it was untrue and gave her the facts as AcrossthePond has explained on here and said that imo headline should be changed.

She said she wasn't going to change anything just because I said it was wrong and I responded that I wouldn't expect her to, just to check the facts, which I always understood was the first rule of journalism. I left it there.

The mendacious headline remains "CG given permanent residence..." but the article is now subtly altered to "CG is being given permanent residence..."

Utter arses. Wish I'd told her that a better use of her time would be to produce a piece about how the Gards are being horribly manipulated by Religious Right to further their own agenda.

Summer yes that CA post certainly sounds very negative in comparison to the usual posts on there and if it's cone from an admin then I'd say that speaks volumes about yesterday's meeting.

This is all so sad, for everyone involved but seeing that latest picture of Charlie was heartbreaking the poor baby needs to be allowed to go peacefully.

Bourdic But a Recorder / Deputy generally not get the contentious stuff. They also only sit a max 30 days a year.

For example, a Recorder in the Crown Court will generally get minor theft trials, not murders.

So whilst he has some judicial experience, this is a whole new ball game.

I mean it as a compliment, I think he is handling it exceptionally well.

Bore I don't think they actually hire "journalists" any more, I think they just hire "social media trend spotters"

Well done you, Bore. We need to challenge these arses and their bullshit.

But imagine the actual reality of turning off life support of a baby where the family you have known 20 hours a day for 9 months are implacably opposed - how? Who?

Theoretically people can have tube feeding ordered when they don't have capacity to decide for or against. In practice, how do you actually get a tube down someone who is not cooperating? In the end, either some sort of temporary cooperation happens, or the feeding is impossible and you have to find another way.

I can't remember who posted this earlier but it really is worth redaing. Concerns a similar case

www.judiciary.gov.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/re_a_11.pdf

Judges get a lot of stick for being "out of touch" but I'm tremendously impressed with Judge Francis and the one in the link. Such clarity of thought and such compassion.

I just read a post on CA where the woman was talking about all the theories about citizenship and how she tries not to read the papers now because she never knows what the truth is and says "So I prefer to just wait until things are posted on here"

People really do believe the CA know best.... it's bizarre.

Theoretically people can have tube feeding ordered when they don't have capacity to decide for or against. In practice, how do you actually get a tube down someone who is not cooperating?

Bit off topic, but in practice when someone is tube fed under section, they're so tiny/weak that they can barely move so it's not actually technically difficult (but still difficult in the respect that you don't really want to do things against people's consent IYKWIM)

nice one bore-i could do their jobs it seems its just lifting stuff off other sm sites

I know it's severe tin foil hat territory, but it can't be forgotten that it suits many different governemental depts (and the government as a whole) to minimise critical thinking among the masses...

Bore, IPSO has a section of its complaints form for "did you contact the newspaper"

I know it's severe tin foil hat territory, but it can't be forgotten that it suits many different governemental depts (and the government as a whole) to minimise critical thinking among the masses..

There's nothing wrong with not knowing something
That's not what bothers me about CA
What bothers me is that when someone comes along with corrections/explainations/questions about validity etc, they're attacked as a threat
THAT'S what's frightening.
I don't expect everyone to have medical or legal knowledge, but it's the attack on anyone who shows any critique as an enemy or "negative" which is so dangerous.

Like I said Maryz the wording in the opening paragraph was tweaked slightly but not the headline.

Still, I have discovered that if you ring the Mail and ask for a 'journalist' by name they put you through! That might be useful in the future

And by the time I can type a response the thread has moved on! Night all.

I used to teach Critical Thinking AS level (only AS was timetabled but some students followed the A2 course in their own time).
We used to focus on topical issues. We would definitely have focused on this, and possibly followed these threads. The course was dropped as it became unimportant wrt university application, even though results were good. I was furious, not least because I so enjoyed teaching it. It was a genuinely eye-opening experience, largely because some less "academically able" students were in fact very good at it.
Now I lead a Functional Skills team in FE and we embed critical thinking in all we do. We feel we have an obligation to do so.

This thread is fast moving, but to address the point about critical thinking and sources of information. I did a science degree, but I remember being taught about primary and secondary sources of information in history class in my first year of secondary education 30+ years ago, i.e. at 11 years old. I'm out of touch on current secondary education syllabus, but I thought it was now covered in current affairs/ media studies? Or is that the schools I know of rather than national curriculum?

SomeDyke thank you for posting that link about the twins. Really tragic and they had a daughter that died of what was probably the same (undiagnosed) condition. What struck me from reading the judgement was the compassion of the judge who constantly made reference to the love the parents clearly had for their children and made it clear that he was making the decision with a heavy heart and was honest that he couldn't guarantee that he wouldn't act as the parents were if he was in the same position but that he had to look, as objectively as possible, at whether it was in those children's best interest to continue with life support when there was absolutely no chance of them improving and there was clear evidence that they were suffering.
Thank you for these threads- they have provided so much food for thought and have been really educational and very civilised.
To the PP who was saying that we shouldn't be discussing this, I think there are some stories that encapsulate so many issues. For decades, there have been parents making the heartbreaking decision to turn off their child's life support but we don't get to hear about it. The difference is that this case has been played out in the full glare of social media.
Much as I think Charlie's parents are horribly misguided and like to think that I would act differently, I do still have sympathy for them.
I have no sympathy for the baying mob that is CA. I just don't get their mentality. All this trying to prove that they love Charlie more than anyone else is just bizarre. I don't believe that you can genuinely love or grieve for someone you've never met.
I know that a PP talked about the Princess Diana effect. The night before her funeral, I was working a late shift just round the corner of Westminster Abbey and remember cycling home past the crowds who were starting to gather. I will never forget one woman who was on her knees with tears pouring down her face literally screaming 'Diana!' at the top of her voice and wondering what was going on for her that she was having such a reaction to the death of someone she'd only ever seen on TV.
And I totally agree with what has been said about the current standard of journalism. The thing that fascinates me about the internet is that all of us have instant access to any information including the best research there is but it seems to have given birth to a trend to see everything in terms of memes and seeing everything in terms of good/bad or right/wrong.
All of us are guilty to some degree of confirmation bias - I know that I find it uncomfortable to read or hear something that is completely at odds with my value system and thinking 'Actually, they've got a point'.
But CA have taken it to a new level in simply sticking their fingers in their ears when listening to anyone who doesn't agree with them 100% even to the point of issuing death threats. There is something seriously sinister going on here.
My job involves quite a lot of child protection work and I have had to deal with parents who will argue to the death that they were loving parents and that SS conspired to remove their children when the reality is that those children were strapped into a high chair for 16 hours a day in a solled nappy and with no food while their parents smoked heroin and they genuinely believe that narrative because to face the reality is too painful.
I just hope for peace for Charlie and his parents.