Otto Warmbier has died

[SouthWestmom]

So sad. Whatever happened to lose your child in this way is heartbreaking. As mine are heading towards adulthood and their own choices it's so upsetting to read.

I've just read about him too. I hope his family get some answers.

Yes I didn't know when he was arrested and held only about his release. It's one of those rare news stories that just catches your heart.

It is tragic. His poor parents.

Kittymum I very much doubt it was food poisoning.

I'd not heard of him but just saw the news headlines and saw Otto crying in the North Korean court. It stopped me in my tracks and I can't stop thinking about him. Poor man and his family.

I feel for him and his family, although I am conflicted on this story.

Really super ? That's interesting. What's your confliction?

I don't want to sound harsh, although I don't think there is any way around it Snap. But traveling to North Korea? Stealing while you're there? I just can't comprehend why someone - who was university educated - would think that that would end well.

That and the fact that the doctors in Cincinnati, US said that there were no signs of physical abuse, no signs of head trauma and no signs of torture, and that all signs point to being a cardiopulmonary event caused by a respiratory problem... I can't see doctors in the US having an agenda, so I don't automatically subscribe to the theories that NK must have been responsible for any health problems this guy had. Obviously you can't trust NK as far as you can throw them, but their actions and inactions don't exempt other people from making poor decisions. The two are not mutually exclusive.

Again, I feel sorry for Otto and for his family, but I don't feel the same unquestioning sympathy for him as what many others seem to.

No I agree I would never even contemplate going to Notth Korea. I thought it was a forced confession though? And the CCTV wasn't clear?

I understand your thoughts completely. It's such a tough one.

He said that he stole the flag for someone back in the US; and that he was going to get a car from this person as a sort of "repayment" for stealing the flag. It seems an elaborate thing to be coerced.

The CCTV isn't clear, but I suppose the counterargument is that it often isn't clear. There are current cases in the US where CCTV isn't clear enough for the police to identify a murder suspect, for example. They simply can't identify enough features on the person's face to be able to create an impression or release a still.

I suspect he probably did steal the flag but the punishment is so out of proportion as to be incomprehensible. And yes, my DC are never going to N Korea or anywhere else that dishes out punishments like this for minor things (because teenagers are idiots or at least prone to acts of idiocy, as was I in my youth).

I read an account by a British guy who was with him - it was an organised tour by a company that run them (now reconsidering). The guy said he never saw Otto try to take the sign, and it was as they were leaving at the airport he was pulled over. They never saw him again.

He did speak to a guide by phone and say he had a terrible headache and wanted to go to hospital.

Of course this is just an account, not direct from NK or Otto.

Such a strange and sad end to a life.

Heartbreaking story. It is a very strange one. If he was so silly to take a poster (I don't believe he did) - the stealing it for money is totally unbelievable and the punishment out of proportion by millions

Sounds to me like he was smothered or waterboarded early on in his imprisonment & went into a coma at that stage.

All cuts/bruises etc would have healed months ago

The BBC is reporting that US officials think his coma was much more recent than a year ago. Apparently NK only told the US he was in a coma a few weeks ago and said they wanted to send him back to the US, plus a IS envoy who regularly met with NK said he'd had multiple conversation with NK about Otto and had never been told he was ill. So whatever happened yo him might be more recent.

I suspect the truth will never come out. It's tragic.

I don't think anyone knows Kitty. The North Koreans are saying it happened a year ago but apparently they only said this a few weeks ago. It's all very horrible. That poor boy.

Like Super, I feel incredibly sorry for his family but somewhat conflicted about him personally.

He gave thousands of pounds to the most abusive regime in the world, because he fancied a fun holiday somewhere exciting. Something to make his frat brothers go, wow, cool, Otto went to North Korea. Did he see a Vice documentary and think, ooh, I'd like to check that out?

The money he gave directly to the Jong regime props up concentration camps. His presence (like the presence of every Western tourist) is a propaganda coup for them.

I hate that the money he gave them was used to imprison and hurt him. But who does the regime usually hurt? Some poor peasant with the bad luck to be born 20 miles the wrong side of the DMZ, who hoarded an extra ration of food to stop his children starving to death (as thousands of NK children are)? Someone who accidentally reported an inconvenient economic truth? Someone who told an off-colour joke about the Kims?

None of these people chose to live this way. Warmbier did. He decided to visit and give money to a country that treats people that way. And I'm not going to feel any sorrier for him than I am for the thousands of people who have been brutalised by the DPRK when they would have given anything for a fraction of the opportunities he had.

For the record, I don't believe he did anything "wrong" while there - perhaps he engaged in a fratty "prank" of trying to steal a sign. (And if he did, he put a half a dozen innocent lives at risk). But I honestly doubt it - I think NK officials thought there was a CIA operative among the group, and thought he might have been it, and once they detained him, things just spiraled. I also think he was probably killed accidentally - I think he became hysterical after the trial, when he realised his release would be a matter of years, not days, and they overdosed him on sedatives.

Ironically, if he actually had been an agent of the CIA, I'd feel totally differently about him. Spying on the regime is a legitimate reason to be in North Korea. Wanting a cooler holiday than all your fellow students is not.

This is so incredibly sad and beyond shocking. I just can't stop thinking about it, it's so sinister. His poor family.

He definitely didn't. Nobody does.

I just feel sorrier for the thousands of North Koreans who die like this with no one knowing, than a man who gave thousands of pounds to their killers just so he could brag he'd been on a cool holiday.

Holdmecloser how do you know he gave thousands of pounds to N Korea? The tour company he used was a Chinese company.

Anybody who enters North Korea as a tourist is giving thousands of pounds (and free propaganda) to the regime. You cannot do so otherwise. All funds go directly to the government:

www.forbes.com/sites/realspin/2017/03/06/useful-idiots-tourism-in-north-korea/#754a43297dcd
www.theguardian.com/travel/2015/oct/08/north-korean-tourism-ethics

For record, I have a (now ex) friend who did exactly what Warmbier did, for the exact same stupid reasons. It's an abhorrent thing to do. He didn't deserve to be captured, tortured, and killed. But his actions in going there are still shameful.