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Angelina has added to her collection

134 replies

JanH · 15/03/2007 21:47

one cute Vietnamese boy - aged 3, she has changed his name, he speaks no English but she was able to just take him away anyway, allegedly...

OP posts:
suejonez · 16/03/2007 19:47

you are entitled to an opinion - I said I was surprised that when you haven't been through an adoption yourself you are so vitriolic about her.

It sounds like a bitch fest to me - I'm entitled to that opinion too...

Now definitely off, nothing of any interest being discussed here.

handlemecarefully · 16/03/2007 20:00

at bitch fest

TaylorsMummy · 16/03/2007 20:11

oh that does make me lol when people are wound up by other people's conversations they have to start slagging people off and saying the conversation is not interesting!!

Well, we are interested, ta very much!!

suejonez · 16/03/2007 20:13

sorry should have said "nothing of any interest TO ME being discussed" I stand corrected.

ScoobyDooooo · 16/03/2007 20:13

Glad you find it funny & are interested in being awful about other people who have helped poor children out of awful situations.

I think you may find that sue is talking from exerience & has been through this herself so maybe if you new a bit more you would not be sitting here being so bloody nasty

TaylorsMummy · 16/03/2007 20:16

i'm talking about mad Ang and her sad sidekick - not any normal person who's been adopted or has adopted

pooka · 16/03/2007 20:20

Well I think she's great. I like that she's quirky. I like that she gives huge amounts of money to charity. I like that she has chosen to adopt 3 orphaned children with perfectly reasonable gaps between adoptions.

What on earth does her not talking to her father, the size of her lips and so on have to do with what she's done.

ScoobyDooooo · 16/03/2007 20:20

Yes but you don't like the fact that she has adopted again, i just don't see your point, if she was so mad & unfit then she would not be allowed to adopt, you may think you know all about "her" life but you don't know her or him only what you read in the media & alot is crap!

TaylorsMummy · 16/03/2007 20:20

she's allowed to adopt cos she has money!!

pooka · 16/03/2007 20:22

Soyou should only be allowed to adopt if you're poor?

Califrau · 16/03/2007 20:22

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

pooka · 16/03/2007 20:23

Quite right Califrau.
I take my hat off to anyone who takes the leap of faith and adopts, particularly when adopting an older child. Takes a lot of guts and self-belief IMO.

Califrau · 16/03/2007 20:24

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

TaylorsMummy · 16/03/2007 20:24

no pooka obviously not but she has been given special treatment because of her money. i do not believe that any normal person would be allowed to adopt 3 kids in that amount of time and have a baby in between. she has been given special treatment just like madonna was

ScoobyDooooo · 16/03/2007 20:26

Oh FFS taylorsmummy is that what you really believe? so what if she has money, so what if she is a celeb she has given 3 wonderful children a happy, healthy, family life
& a chance to live a normal life & understand how it feels to be loved by a family unit.

pooka · 16/03/2007 20:27

Are you sure of that though Taylorsmummy? Personally I don't know enough about the American/Vietnamese adoption system, the rules and regulations and her own private assessment to conclude that it's only been allowed because she's rich and famous.

Issymum · 16/03/2007 20:29

SueJonez: Thank you for trying. It's dispiriting isn't it? I'm still sufficiently wearied after the Madonna debacle that I don't have the energy to rehearse the arguments again.

Actually, I've just realised that I don't have to. Thanks to the handy Mumsnet Search function, I can copy and paste everything I said last time around about Madonna's adoption of David and quietly walk away from this thread.

Why one shouldn't confuse adoption with charity

  1. Adoption and charity are two entirely unrelated issues and it's unhelpful to conflate them. You adopt a child because you want (1) to be a parent to a child and, given all the circumstances, this is your best route to parenthood (2) to parent that child perhaps because you have an emotional, moral or even family connection with the child or (3) to help a child or perhaps that child. For most inter-country adoptive parents it's the first motive and that is generally considered by English adoption social workers as the best motive to adopt.
  1. Adoption should not be confused with charity; clearly if you want to help an orphanage, a community, a country or even a whole continent, then inter-country adoption is unlikely to be the most effective way to do it. Many inter-country adoptive parents do go on to become involved in charitable activities in the birth countries of their children, but there is no reason why they should be expected to do so beyond re-inforcing for their children the importance of and connection to their birth-country.

Why inter-country adoption might be the outcome for a child
Inter-country adoption is sometimes, only sometimes, the best solution for an individual child who would otherwise grow up without a family. It all depends on the circumstances. When inter-country adoption works properly, the adoptive parents' motives and the child's best interests are aligned and it's a great outcome for child and adoptive parents.

It isn't just about healthcare, education, basic necessities and the opportunity to make some life choices, although you can't imagine how much those matter until you haven't got them, it's about belonging to a family. It's about having the enduring and unconditional love of a parent(s). Would it be better for the child to remain in its birth country? Of course, but whilst adoption happens all the time in developing countries, unofficially amongst extended family members or villagers, if a child is in an orphanage, he or she is very unlikely to find a family locally. And yes, it is indeed bloody unlucky to lose one's birth family and be taken from one's country, but if I had to choose between life in an orphanage in my birth country and life in a foreign family, I would choose family life. But I wouldn't think that I was 'lucky' to have just those options.

Whether Madonna should have adopted David?
So should Madge adopt? Why not if she is a suitable adoptive parent (don't know what the deal is with her homestudy and DFES approvals!) and her motivation is the right one to parent a child who is genuinely without a parent who is able or willing to do so.
Whether Madonna should have adopted this little boy depends entirely on the circumstances. Was the boy properly 'available' for adoption, did the father give full and informed consent, can Madonna and Guy give this child the special care, long-term security and connection with his birth country that he needs? Who knows? Given the scant information available and the generally unreliable resources (Daily Mail anyone?), I'm not sure speculation is particularly useful. And for the record, I think Madonna and Guy are right in giving no comment and no information and I hope they continue to do so. The circumstances of this adoption are or should be confidential to the child.

Why it is simply impractical to see giving money to families who *can't support their children as an alternative to adoption
Say a child is in an orphanage, she is there because her extended family is or says it is unable to afford to look after her. As an adoptive parent I want to adopt her. But I don't, I make a 20 year commitment to the family and move on to the next child. That child also happens to be there for reasons of poverty. I make another 20 year commitment and move on. I'm a wealthy Westerner and poverty is the main ostensible reason these children are in the orphanage, so I just keep paying. I'm now beginning to run out of money and have noticed a very long queue of parents placing children in the orphanage in the hopes that they too will get 20 years' financial support from prospective adoptive parents. So I find a child without any extended family and adopt it. Word gets around and every adoptive parent after me asks not to be allocated a child who is available for adoption for reasons of poverty. So those that are in the orphanage for reasons of poverty stay there.

I'm not saying that I don't agree with your immediate inclination to pay money to the family so that they can keep the child, but the ramifications of that happening more than occasionally are not straight forward.

Issymum · 16/03/2007 20:31

Sorry, one of those titles should have read 'the best outcome for the child'.

wilkie50 · 16/03/2007 20:42

Have skim read most of this. I agree that Angelina and Brad will give the little boy a much better life than he will have had and to me, that is the most important thing.

I don't have much of an opinion on Ange and Brad - surely the children being happy and well cared for is the most important thing which they appear to be.

What REALLY REALLY gets my goat is that these 'celebrities' appear to pick these children up with ease whereas us normal folk would have to go through endless red tape before we can even be considered to adopt these poor little mites who need love and attention. How many childless couples do you think would happily adopt children from wherever (I would if I didn't have my LO) but can't because of red tape/money.

What makes celebrities so special that they appear to be able to have a 'child shopping trip'??????

ScoobyDooooo · 16/03/2007 20:46

But how does any one of us know what they have been through to adopt these children, we only know what we are told or what the media decide to make up, i don't think these celebs sit here giving us all a run down on how they did it or what they had to do, that is there own private business, yes they have money, security & lovely homes but how do we know what they have been through?

wilkie50 · 16/03/2007 20:47

SD - we don't but how many people do you know have managed to adopt 3 children from 3 different countries in about 4 years?

ScoobyDooooo · 16/03/2007 20:51

none

wilkie50 · 16/03/2007 20:53

My point exactly

Aloha · 16/03/2007 20:53

I was shocked she changed his name. That did smack of vanity to me.

ScoobyDooooo · 16/03/2007 20:56

Yes i see your point wilkie but if it was done illegally then surly she would get pulled up on it, it has to be legal.

I just did not agree with all the nasty comments on this thread when all i see is a women who is helping these young children & to be honest even if she has adopted 3 children in a small amount of time does it really matter? surly all that matters is these children are happy & healthy?

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