mothers with young children are the most discriminated against at work

[paddingtonbear1]

I haven't actually found this in my company, and it's very small - only 18 employees. But I can imagine if I looked for another job, I might find it hard to get one, being a mother still under 40. I couldn't believe some of the comments in the 'have your say' on the bbc website though - most people seem to think that women who can't afford to stay at home shouldn't have kids at all! That would be me then! I don't think in this day and age, with mortgages and other rising costs, that's practical. I don't take advantage though, fortunately dd isn't sick very often, and dh does his share.
I think most of the people making the comments were men, or people with no kids...

Anna, I hate to spoil your bubble (not really, just a figure of speech) but I think you?d find it more difficult than you imagine to walk back into an academic job unless you learn to be that little bit more PC. If common decency doesn?t tell you how to talk about other people, at least the prospect of a future job. Since you?ve been out of work the world has gone PC mad, e.g. we don?t call the French frogs, Bolivian women we know nothing about illiterate and from the forests etc. Food for thought, put that in your baguette and chew on it.

Soapbox - cut and paste of my FIRST post

Motherhood starts off being a full-time job, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. Only when a child starts school does motherhood stop being a full-time job. Only the child's biological mother can take true and proper care of a child (which does not mean to say, unfortunately, that all biological mothers are good enough mothers - but that's another issue).

Mothers who work in paid employment because their families cannot survive without their wages are in the unhappy position of having no choice but to subcontract their mothering role. This is never ideal for the child, unless the hours worked by the mother are very few and a close family member (ie father, grandparent) is able to take on responsibility for the child(ren) while the mother is working. There are also some very dedicated childminders who can provide good quality care. Again, for the child's wellbeing, hours spent with a childminder should ideally be limited.

The workplace is competitive and decently paid jobs require 100% commitment to the employer and a support network at home to wash clothes, prepare meals, clean and organise family life. Women are not superwomen with 48 hours days: no human being should be expected to do all three jobs (paid work, housework and mothering) simultaneously and well. Yet Western governments consistently push policies that expect such a level of superhumanness of women. Many men are fundamentally lazy and selfish and all too happy with the idea that their wives are inadequate unless they are top performers in all three roles, while believing that their only contribution to the family needs to be paid work. And because men therefore, because they have greater availability (not ability), earn more money than women, they assume they are superior beings who can shove their wives about and treat them badly.

Feminism should be about getting women's reality acknowledged - not about equal pay for a man's lifestyle.

Christina - I do get approached quite regularly for work, as my publications are still quite recent and meet with quite a bit of success...

But then they hear you talk and think, nah, get someone else in.

and absolutely nowhere have I called French people frogs. Don't put words in my (figurative) mouth. There's nothing wrong with calling illiterate people illiterate. On the contrary, it is better to acknowledge other people's lack of opportunity in less advanced societies, it helps us realise just how incredibly lucky we all are and shouldn't whinge too much about being bored or downtrodden.

We're as bad as each other at opposite extremes which is amusing.

Only those on the thread who were married for 19 years like me are really qualified to comment on long marriages, may be? Of course sex wears off. There's the old saying put a bead in the jar for everytime you make love in your first year and in another jar for each time in the next 25 years and you'll have the same number of beads. I'm not saying it's always like that and we did have reasonably large amount of sex for 19 years but there is certainly a difference between the first few years and later on which is normal and just part of life.

I owuld not like anna's morning as just described but I am not her. Politically I have problems that it's the woman without the job but if we were in a fair and equal world I would find it easier to accept it was that way around - male work, woman at home. As we don't I'll continue to express my views. Once as many men as women give up work I will silence myself. I will probably also be silenced if I marry again I suppose.

It's quite hard to keep these things unpersonalised sometimes. I have a natural animosity to second wives commenting on how first wives brought up their children which I should rein in. Also men aren't the same with different women either so you can never really know what went on in someone else's marriage. If I go out with a man and he starts going on about his first marriage which so many do I assume the opposite of what he's saying is probably the truth.

Oh Christina, stop taking cheap shots about something you know nothing about.

Writing academic publications for executive education involves long absences from home at seminars etc and that is not compatible with my current family life. So I don't want to do that right now. However, I do have a strong network of close friends in that world and, believe it or not, most executive education materials are crap and people able to do business research in French, Italian and Spanish and write up a great, racy case study in English are very few and far between.

Nothing wrong, Anna, if you actually knew that they were illiterate, that they were from Bolivia and they came from the forest. I doubt very much you knew any of this for sure but, you know, you were there and we weren't so you can say anything you like, obviously. The way you described them didn't come across as filled with sympathy or empathy for their unfortunate situation, rather full of hate and venom for...I don't really know what. Oh, hang on a minute, for not living your life or even, the stupidity of it, not aspiring to have your life.

I really don't want to go further with this discussion as I think it's becoming too personal for you and that can't be nice. I was just so taken aback by that post and its racism or just obnoxiousness.

Anna - wow, so you write racy stuff. Well done.

It needs to be depersonalised. It's probably my fault for allowing it to be personalised.

The general point which I think is valid on the thread is that if any employee cannot do the job whatever the reason then subject to a bit of tolerance and give and take they can't expect to be in the job. That's the law and I don't see it ever changing. Many mumsnetters are employers as well as employees either because they have a nanny or childminder or because at work they employ people and they see this from both sides too.

Probably most working parents agree that if both of you work then you both should be responsible for children and the home. So there's probably a reasonable consensus about that issue. However in practice a lot of couples get into a position where they both work equal hours but the woman still does more at home. If they like that fine. If not they should do something about it.

Xenia - what's wrong about having feelings about how first wives bring up their children? More particularly when the first wife is only too delighted to be able to delegate to the second? I do realise this is pretty exceptional, since all my divorced girlfriends without exception hate their partner's second wife looking after their children. I have to push back like crazy not to have the boys here all the time.

I think Anna8888 protests far too much. If her academic credentials were that good she would not be highlighting the ability to write "racy case studies" for "executive education" as something to be particularly proud of. She also appears to have both the second wife's jealousy of the first and fear of the potential third. It doesn't seem a very contented way of life and I certainly wouldn't want to swap with her.

As has (I think) been said before, if she were that sure of her choices she wouldn't need the confirmation of a load of strangers that they were right.

Xenia - I think you are absolutely spot on with your last post.

Christina - I have only written from personal observation - my own and that of my sister - about the quality of childcare in France and Spain and, yes, I do know what I am talking about. It is not racist or derogatory to not wish to leave one's child with someone who is backward and ignorant, it is on the contrary only true and proper care for one's child. Acknowledging other people's misfortune is in no way a personal condemnation of their lifestyle choices. OF COURSE if you come from a very poor country you will most probably have had far fewer opportunities, it is very sad, but Western women shouldn't be forced to sacrifice their children's early development to that misfortune.

Mrs Wobble - I didn't want to write about my professional background. I just get fed up of reading that I must be some kind of moron to have made the choices I have.

Oh, and I'm NOT married and don't intend ever to be... not a good tax position. So no, I'm not in fear of any other wife, for that or any other reason. I actually am pretty lucky in many ways that my partner's ex is such a hands-off mother - it's terrible for the children, but of course they love coming here where they get so much more attention.

Anna - ok, so maybe I am incredibly dense - but in that post, where do you advocate choice?

You say only bio mums can do the full time mother role, some people have to work, woman are not superwomen and men are often lazy and expect too much of women.

Where, where in that speel of general stereotypical nonsence, do you mention choice for women, other than of course to make the choice you have done?

It is not racist or derogatory to not wish to leave one's child with someone who is backward and ignorant, it is on the contrary only true and proper care for one's child.

I actually think that calling people from Bolivia Backward and ignorant is a bit racist to be honest.

Soapbox - the last sentence about recognising women's reality, resuming my point about them having a heavier workload than men.

I did not say "All Bolivians are backwards and ignorant"

Stop distorting the point, which is perfectly valid. Unless you think that your children are less important than your childminder.

But that is your reality you want to be recognised. Many women might actually quite like to have mens' pay for a man's life!

i have been reading this post with interest for some time now and resisted the temptation to post but some of the sweeping generalsations are horrifying and derogatory. The world doesn't split easily into categories no matter how hard we try - not all men are unreconstructed chauvinists who expect a home cooked meal on the table each night presented by a perfectly groomed wife and the 2.4 angelic children tucked up in bed.
Myself and my husband both work fulltime and our son is in fulltime nursery - i work for lots of reasons but financially i need too. I work in a fairly senior role but don't feel it utterly defines me just as being a wife,mother,daughter etc doesn't exclusively define me.
In our families we all make choices based on our circumstances - why people take such unabashed pleasure in knocking these is a source of fascination for me ...
I don't enjoy being demonised for being a working mother and putting my son in nursery but i would never judge another woman's choices in some of the ways that have been stated on this thread.

But Soapbox, women are NOT men. We get pregnant, give birth and breastfeed. They don't. They are physically stronger than us on average. They have different (NOT better, different) skillsets on average.

I'll give you another example which I also find totally shocking of non-respect for gender differences.

Lots of pharmaceutical trials for drugs that are commonly prescribed are done on a sex-neutral basis on men. Prescriptions for strong drugs are made for women without ever having tested for the efficacy of those drugs on women, and some have been proven to be (at best) useless and (at worst) harmful for a woman's physiology. This should be illegal.

she didn't say we are men - she ( soapbox th cats mother) said 'for a mans life'

like erm working the long hours etc - not unreasonable to get the same pay same everything in the owrkplace.

your argument re physiology anna - as well as having feck all to do with owt in particular kinda puts over a point that - we are made different so we have to put up with it - thats not what your saying is it?