mothers with young children are the most discriminated against at work

[paddingtonbear1]

I haven't actually found this in my company, and it's very small - only 18 employees. But I can imagine if I looked for another job, I might find it hard to get one, being a mother still under 40. I couldn't believe some of the comments in the 'have your say' on the bbc website though - most people seem to think that women who can't afford to stay at home shouldn't have kids at all! That would be me then! I don't think in this day and age, with mortgages and other rising costs, that's practical. I don't take advantage though, fortunately dd isn't sick very often, and dh does his share.
I think most of the people making the comments were men, or people with no kids...

I can't help wondering if you wear one-size-fits-all clothes, Xenia, because that seems to be your model for women.

I think you have a one dimensional vision of life, there's so much more to be interested in than work. My dh rarely talks about work when he comes home - after a 12hr day he wants a change of scene, thank you very much. I've not worked outside the home all that much (I was going to say why, but I don't think I need to justify myself) but will be celebrating my 35th wedding anniversary this year so presumably haven't managed to bore my dh to death thus far.

Perhaps I've just been very unlucky in being with stay at home mothers who want to talk about washing powder and their babies when I'd rather talk about Blair or whatever. Their world becomes a sort of micro thing bound in by home and their men get bored and stray. That does not happen when women work.

But if we all had the same views it would be dull. It's good we all have a chance to air them.

YAWN at xenia, she's not still sahm bashing is she?

defo oozing with guilt for years of neglecting her womanly duties.

"Perhaps I've just been very unlucky in being with stay at home mothers who want to talk about washing powder and their babies when I'd rather talk about Blair or whatever. Their world becomes a sort of micro thing bound in by home and their men get bored and stray. That does not happen when women work."

Oh rubbish. How shallow do you think all men are? Perhaps men should marry men if all they are attracted to is discussions about work.

Xenia, all my divorced friends are the career crazy dictatorial ones who exhausted their husbands. Often fantastic, highly analytic women but no concept of how to make a marriage work...

it wasn't the only wanting to talk about work. It was having someone who isn't completely just into the domestic sphere which of course not all working mothers are but a lot are. They lose their interest in anything other than the children but obviously not all of them.

Some women can't afford to divorce who are married worldwide and their lack of economic independence causes them and their families much unhappiness but I don't think whether a woman works or not determines if her marriage lasts.

and perhaps, rather than attributing your failure to encounter SAHMs who have a brain and an imagination to unluckiness, it might have more to do with your own life path? SAHM's with a personality don't generally want to hang out with women who got sucked into marriage, childbearing and the rat race at a very early age and then belittle them and drone on about how perfect their life choices are when they haven't seen anything else... There are lots of potentially interesting life choices.

I just had a lovely morning - my partner took elder stepson to school for 8am, then came back home and played with younger stepson for an hour (no school on Wednesdays for little ones in France), my daughter and I slept until 9.15am when we all had breakfast (fresh baguette picked up on school run) and a chat together and then the children played a bit more with their father. Then grandmother came to pick up my stepson to take him to tennis, my partner went to the office and my daughter and I had a bath and a girly time with face masks and dolls houses and books. And then I had a long chat with my mother (in the UK), read the papers and daughter and I have just had lunch and now we're going to do some errands in the centre of Paris... life would not be so relaxed if I worked...

The greatest determinants of whether a marriage lasts or not is time spent together as a couple doing activities that are meaningful for the two of them together, and respect for each other's differences. The more time people spend outside the home, and the greater the division of labour down the middle, the less chance there is of this happening.

And believe you me, sex doesn't just 'wear off' for some of us .

expatinscotland - too right, of course sex doesn't "wear off".

No sex = dead marriage.

Anna8888 - whilst I find Xenia's views a little extreme and can understand that you are a little riled, I am finding your views equally obnoxious!

You are as guilty of making sweeping generalisations as Xenia is, yet lambast her for doing so.

You are equally blindsided about seeing that not everyone wants to lead the same life as you - your description of your relaxing day would have me knawing my arm off with boredom.

I find it insufferably tedious that we are still parodying the same old generalisations and stereotypes, and long for some intelligent measured discussions of issues like these. Instead we get the rubbish spouted by the likes of you and Xenia!

Not everyone wants the same things out of life and therefore we don't all make the same choices.

Some of us are lucky enough to have a free choice whether to work or not - the overwhelming majority do not! Circumstances and econimics forces them to either woth when they don't want to, or sah when they want to woth. These women have been failed by feminism in my view and it is time we started a serious debate about how to help increase the life choices of those women who at the present time are stuck in a place they don't want to be!

Good one, Soapbox.

wow, anna, what a lovely morning you had. dh took ds to school and barely had the time to say bye bye. me and dd had a lovely morning, because she is adorable and fun to be with, but hoovered, changed the bedlinen (with her trying to help, cute eh?), and cleaned the bathroom. by 11 o'clock I had a backache. then went into town to buy some bread. going into town today was actually a pleasure becuase for once it's not raining and there's a new place where you can actually buy real bread, instead of the crap you get from supermarkets or industrialized bakery shops. I bet my very boring, yes, boring, because my friends aren't here, life as a sahm would be less dull if I could pop into colette or cetrne pompidou once a week. and it would also be nice to be able to find some illiterate babysitter coming from the bolivian forest. not being able to do so, we opted for a nursery,so that our children can learn english and I have the time to read the papers.

thank you soapbox

I meant good post soapbox

Franca - I did do some household chores along the way but I don't really ever notice them, I just do them on automatic pilot and think about completely different things that interest me while I'm doing them...

I do understand that the city you live in has a big impact on how interesting or otherwise your life as an SAHM is and that you don't always get to have much choice in that matter.

And one of the many reasons I like having my daughter at home is so that I can be sure she grows up bilingual... again, that depends on circumstances.

Soapbox - read my posts, I am advocating CHOICE for all women. Xenia can't appreciate that women have any value unless they follow the career track - I think that lots of models have value.

I'd have thought illiterate women from the Bolivian forest (you wonder how they even knew to apply for a passport) would be instinctively more maternal, wearing the children in slings and the like, or letting them go wild. Those forests must be so depopulated now. That was one of the most crass (crassest?) posts in this thread.

Anna please - once was enough!

You are not advocating choice, you are advocating teh choice that you made and why it has value. It may have value to you, but it doesn't follow that it has value to other people.

Don't get all PC and idealistic about inexperienced childcare if you haven't seen it at first hand... Don't you think that you are being a little condescending by imagining that people from less advanced societies are naturally more maternal and caring?

Bloody hell, Anna, how very perceptive of you. I WAS being condescending and silly.

No, I will have you tell me that I have taken a position that is not my own. I am advocating real choice for women, I have the luxury to make the choice I have for the time being because I worked for years and made money before having a child and can afford to take a career break and I am very happy to do so as I believe it is great for our family. But I know that many women don't have those choices and I am extremely supportive of those who have to work (including the ones I employ as cleaner, babysitter) to survive and don't exploit them.

Can you point out where you advocate real choice then Anna, because I cannot see it?

Is it the post where you say that childcare is so poor it is not for your family (but some other poor bugger can use it, perhaps they aren't as picky as you)?

is it the post where you say all the divorced people you know are career obsessed loonies?

Perhaps the post about your lovely relaxing day, or was it a journey into smugdom - dear working mummies wouldn;t you all like to swap places with me for a day!

Ah, maybe it was this one 'If I worked full-time I wouldn't know my children (and, from your comments, you don't seem to have a clue about what KNOWING one's children means) and my relationship with my partner would be going nowhere fast because I'd be too knackered to do the work necessary to keep our life moving forwards.'

I think you need to do a little work on your self awareness and communicating style, as you are clearly not managing to get your pov across very well here

Soapbox - read all my posts in this thread, plus the ones I am responding to, rather than superficially skimming through a selection.

I'm not smug, I make lots of sacrifices to have this life, but I do know what they are and why I am making them. All lives involve choice, choice implies loss as well as gain. I don't think women can "have it all" simultaneously à la Xenia, but sometimes we can "have it all" sequentially.

Anna - I am not a stupid person!

I have read your posts and the whole of the thread, perhaps you would be kind enough to tell me where you advocate choice?