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Southall Guilty

220 replies

Bunglie · 20/06/2004 21:48

I am so very pleased that he has been found guilty on most of the charges. I do not understand how he did what he did to the Clarke family.
What disturbs me is that he has not been struck off. There is still the posibility that he could just be reprimanded.
If he were allowed to continue to practice would you trust him and take your child to him?

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Bunglie · 26/06/2004 16:31

What I mean is the Judge didn't laugh him out of court but accepted his evidence as that of "absolute fact"

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Jimjams · 26/06/2004 16:53

Well of course- you're a mother and disabled. You were guilty in the judges eyes before you walked into the room I suspect. They could have brought a monkey in to provide evidence against you (lets face it they did) and you would have been found guilty.

Until having a disabled child myself and getting a little bit involved with the home educating special needs children world, I just didn't realise that these things happened. I thought that children being taken away by mistake were rare events- instead I know several people who have had close calls, and one whose child was removed. I didn't realise what contempt mother's are held in by so many professionals.

aloha · 26/06/2004 17:08

There is a feature in Private Eye this week about children with Aspergers being misdiagnosed as schizophrenics and given powerful (and totally inappropriate) anti-psychotic drugs and being held in high security hospitals for years and years, despite all the protests of their parents.

Jimjams · 26/06/2004 17:23

Very sad case hit the news recently about a young adult in that position......

dinosaur · 26/06/2004 17:26

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aloha · 26/06/2004 17:32

One of the people in the story was 14 when misdiagnosed. he's an adult now. The parents didn't know he had Aspergers, but did know he wasn't psychotic. The misdiagnoses happened a while ago, but the scandal is that some people are still in hospitals being forcefed drugs despite all we've learned since.

dinosaur · 26/06/2004 17:35

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GillW · 26/06/2004 17:38

This from the Exeter Express last week (your area isn't it Jimjams?)

===
Medical experts facing scrutiny

More specialists in a rare disorder are needed in rural areas such as Devon, one of the county's MPs has told Parliament.

Angela Browning, MP for Tiverton and Honiton, whose son has Asperger's Syndrome, challenged ministers to end a situation which sees many sufferers misdiagnosed as schizophrenic. She claimed people with the condition were administered the wrong drugs and being wrongly admitted to mental institutions.

Mrs Browning, vice president of the National Autistic Society and a national expert on the issue, is a long-term carer for her 32-year-old son, Robin, who has Asperger's.

She said: "It has been a lifetime crusade for me. Robin is doing very well now."

While people with Asperger's Syndrome are often intelligent and can excel at maths and science, they have problems socialising and their behaviour can appear similar to that of schizophrenics.

Mrs Browning called for the Government to take action in a Commons debate last year, but is concerned at the lack of progress the medical profession has made in recognising Asperger's.

The Tory MP believes the issue is particularly acute in rural areas such as Devon where there is a lack of specialists.

Last week, she stepped up her campaign with five Commons questions on the issue to Health Minister Stephen Ladyman.

Mrs Browning said that since her debate in September, Aylesbury MP David Liddington had raised the case of a constituent with Asperger's Syndrome who had been put in a mental institution.

She said: "There was very little recognition in the minister's reply that there was a common problem of people with Asperger's Syndrome being misdiagnosed as schizophrenic. There are too many cases of people being misdiagnosed.

"I have had them in my constituency and I get casework from around the country about so-called expert psychiatrists who see an Asperger person and assume they are schizophrenic.

"I suggested in my debate that there should be some analysis of how many of these cases there are. I'm now asking again what assessment has been made of the appropriate qualifications and experience of psychiatrists treating patients who have an autistic spectrum disorder."

She said she has come across cases in Devon where psychiatrists had ignored a diagnosis of Asperger's Syndrome.

In the case of her son, the condition was not initially recognised. Mrs Browning said: "He was not diagnosed until he was 19. We knew he had a problem but nobody could say what it was. That is quite common.

"He hasn't had the problems I have identified here. He has been fortunate that he has had me to make the case for him whenever he has had problems with the medical profession."

Mrs Browning asked what analysis the Department of Health had made into the long-term effects of drugs to patients misdiagnosed as schizophrenic. "It is really a criminal act for somebody to be treated with these very strong drugs," she said.

Mrs Browning has also questioned what criteria were required for doctors and psychiatrists who offered themselves as expert witnesses in assessments of autistic spectrum disorders. She has been prompted to do this after seeing evidence some experts know less about the condition than they claim.

She said: "I will start off with the minister but will be wanting to talk to the Institute of Psychiatry and the Royal College when I get the answer. I think you should have peer recognition to offer yourself as an expert.

"I am keen to weed out people who frankly get paid very handsome fees for appearing as expert witnesses."

Hansard referemnce here

frogs · 26/06/2004 18:18

I wasn't commenting on your specific case, Bunglie, and I hope you don't think I was trying to. Nor am I trying to defend Southall et. al. My intention was just to explain from an inside viewpoint how expert witness evidence should work, and how it seems to me the experts in these high profile cases went beyond their remit. If you're finding my posts unhelpful, I'll stop straight away.

In criminal cases it is ultimately the jury who decide which expert to believe, when they deliver their verdict, although the judge may comment if he (or she, in an ideal world) has reason to believe that one expert may be more reliable than another. In civil cases such as family court ones the judge has more discretion (absolute discretion, it appears).

I also find it alarming that experts should disagree so violently. In my field it is unusual for experts on opposing sides to reach diametrically opposed conclusions, which when you consider that they're supposed to have examined the same material shouldn't be that surprising. What does sometimes happen in my field is that experts will disagree on the exact interpretation they place on a particular part of the evidence, or disagree over how confident they are of their judgment. In such situations it is not uncommon (again in the criminal courts) for judges to tell the two experts to get together and agree a conclusion that they are both happy with.

This practice highlights the fact that there shouldn't really be a 'defence' report or a 'prosecution' report as such -- when I feel I'm being unreasonably leant on in the witness box, I sometimes say: 'Your honour, I have written exactly the same report as I would have written had I been instructed by the other side." That is a powerful line and usually stops them in their tracks. IMO any expert who is taking public money to produce reports for the judicial process should be able to say the same.

hth

KeepingMum · 26/06/2004 18:24

I have been absolutely appalled at some of the miscarriages of justice that are mentioned here and in the lost parents threads. Not wanting to sound flippant but surely there is enough evidence now for an expert to define a new 'syndrome' in which medical experts are so convinced of their own god-like powers in their specialist fields that they feel able to ruin peoples lives with impunity. I agree with aloha that Southall, Shipman and the other child abuse professionals (Orkney etc) are similar and should be diagnosed with this 'syndrome'. I think Bunglie said further down that the profile of MSBP that was used so devastatingly against her fits Southall himself very well. It certainly does make me think twice about going to the doctor for anything that isn't a straightforward infectious disease.

Bunglie · 26/06/2004 18:37

Frogs - NO Plese do continue to post, it is very good for us to have a balanced view of things and let's be honest we are all of the 'let's lynch him party'. I personally find your input very good, well constructed and helpful. It just brings back a few memories that I would rather forget and I get angry. BUT NOT AT YOU. it is at the very few people like Meadows and Southall.
I am not taking your postings personally although it must seem that way - I am sorry. I do not believe that you can have a discussion with only one opinion, you give us another way of looking at things, so please continue and I apologise if I have caused you any offence.
Bunglie

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Jimjams · 26/06/2004 18:40

embarrasingly dino I've forgtton al the important facts. I know he was/is in a secure hospital. Aggh I suspect there's something about it on the NAS website.

Bunglie · 26/06/2004 18:41

Keeping Mum, I love the idea of giving these experts a syndrome. Afterall we are just as qualified a Meadows, who made up one, not being a psychiatrist or anything. So What do we call this syndrome?

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dinosaur · 26/06/2004 18:43

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This has been withdrawn by MNHQ at the poster's request.

GillW · 26/06/2004 18:46

Diagnosis Under Delusion Syndrome (DUDS for short)?

Dictionary.com define delusion (in terms of Psychiatry) as "A false belief strongly held in spite of invalidating evidence, especially as a symptom of mental illness". Quite appropriate really.

Bunglie · 26/06/2004 18:49

GillW LOL

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KeepingMum · 26/06/2004 18:53

Good one, GillW, I think we should publisj a paper on it. Its almost a Munchausens by proxy by proxy, ie they make up that some one is making up someone elses illness!

Jimjams · 26/06/2004 19:10

Don't know about brain the size of a small planet- but I do know that ds2 has a head the size of a small planet - he's 2 and the last hat I bought him was age 7-10.

Don't worry its been massive since (before) birth - so not a sign of autism.

I like DUDS.

suedonim · 26/06/2004 19:41

Is this the aspergers case you mean, JimJams? This is all so awful - it reminds me of the Cleveland scandal about 20 yrs ago, with children being taken from their parents on little or no basis in fact. We thought it could never happen again.......

Bunglie · 26/06/2004 20:17

Quick note before I have to rush off again!

I am so sorry, I feel as if it is only people like me and our children, who have suffered at the hands of misguided doctors. That apergers case is appalling. I am feeling rather selfish at the moment because I did not realise what had been going on either. Thank you for bringing it to my attention.
It seems that we need a body, other than the GMC to 'police' doctors. Of course they are going to make mistakes and sorry sofia, no disrespect meant, but I don't want us to get to the stage of everyone sueing doctors for any little 'mistake'. BUT some mistakes should never have been allowed to happen and there needs to be an independent regulatory body in my opinion.
I am learning and understanding so much thank you. I shall see if I can get those 'spikes' on my wheelchair! See you outside the GMC building (where is it ?????)

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Bunglie · 26/06/2004 20:19

Oh I am apologising to Sofia as I think everyone in the US sues for the sake of it. There is no such thing as an accident there.

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SofiaAmes · 26/06/2004 23:38

GillW.....DUDS is awesome. I think we need to start a website (not in competition with mumsnet of course) with that name!

Bunglie, no offense taken. As I said, I'm not a fan of suing at the drop of a hat, but it does have its advantages and one of them is that it can serve to keep symptoms like DUDS in check. That doesn't mean that it doesn't occur the usa, it is certainly not as prevalent as it seems to be here.

Jimjams · 26/06/2004 23:47

Yes that's the case suedonim- desperate isn't it? Bunglie you are not selfish!

Bunglie · 27/06/2004 14:09

awe- jimjams, that's kind of you to say.
Just wondering if the mumsnet shop which says you can make your own designs ets, would do me a few badges saying 'DUDS' - Ilove it, great on GillW

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GillW · 27/06/2004 23:20

Another Southall case goes back to the appeal court next week - see here for full details.

An excerpt....

"Its case in jeopardy, the Crown Prosecution Service turned to Professor Southall, who testified that it was very unlikely that someone with such severe head injuries would have been alive when the defence claimed.

Professor Southall had little experience of the type of severe head injuries suffered by Billie-Jo and the prosecution did not produce a head injury expert to support his view. A head injury expert who appeared for the defence pointed out that people with fatal head injuries often remain alive for surprisingly long periods."

Am I getting cynical or does this start to sound like the CPS regarded Southall as an "expert" witness who could get the results they wanted in court - regardless of whether he was actually an "expert" in the particular area in question?