Islamic dress- non racist discussion please

[hmb]

The young girl in question has been denied the right to wear a jilbab, an ankle-length gown.

But Denbigh High School said the jilbab was a health and safety risk, and it already offered an alternative uniform for its Muslim pupils. It allowed Muslim girls a variant of school uniform and they could wear the Shalwar Camise (sp?)

Does anyone have any experince of this before in work or school setting? What changes have been made to accomodate traditional dress and beliefs. School I work in allows head coverings in school colours and long as they are tied back when they need to be eg in D & T lessons, scince labs.

Please no racist comments, but does anyone have any exerince of this

salwar kameez

Thanks Cods, I have problem typing in English!

hmb, I half heard someone on the Today prog this morning, saying they'd (I think he was a teacher/head) adapted traditional dress at their school eg for science lessons where long scarves could prove a health and safety risk.
there was a piece in one of the papers last week saying that teachers didn't have enough knowledge to accommodate the needs of muslim pupils eg dietary (offering alternatives to pork or respecting fasting during ramadan) and clothing.

We have no problem with head scarves of any lenght and long as they are tied back during practical lessons, in the same way that we insist that hair is tried back, for H & S reasons.

Does anyone know if tying them back is prohibited by Islam?

No problems tying back in Islam... In fact, I think the basic rule in some interpretations is that a woman shouldn't let men outside the family see her hair at all, so it tends to have to be tied back under head scarf. It's Sikhs who aren't supposed to cut their hair so it might be awkward to completely tie a lot of hair back if you were Sikh.

Was thinking of the head scarf rather tha the hair tbh, as it might not 'cover' their shape as well IYSWIM. Sikhs would not be a problem andthey will tie their hair back and the boys will have it under a covering or turban.

I would think that as long as the hair was covered up, pinning the scarf down very tight or tying it back should be ok.

denbigh high school is near me

this might sound stupid but when i was at high scool the biggest issue was why where indian girls alowed to wear nose studs ans ear rings and we werent they said it was because of there religion is this true???

Nickola, the nose studs thing is cultural not religious.

HMB - I had a religious Moslem schoolfriend who pinned back her headscarf, so don't think there are religious issues to pinning it back, as long as hair is covered. I also knew a Moslem medical student who wore a headscarf and had no problems, so would assume that there are easy practical solutions to H&S issues!

Having seen a photo of the student wearing her Jilbab, I wondered if the issue of trip hazard was a factor. The Jilbab seemed fairly close-fitting around the upper body, not needing tying back, but very long - actually touching the floor, I thought (ie, longer than Salwar Kameez trousers or a sari are usually worn).

Although there was some argument based on health and safety, concerning a school with crowded staircases and ankle length garments, health and safety was not the decisive factor in the case. The judge noted that various other schools, including apparently Cheltenham Ladies' College, have uniforms with long skirts! It is really about the significance and symbolism of the school uniform, and whether being asked not to wear the jilbab in this particular school amounted to an "exclusion" in the circumstances within the meaning of the statutes, whether in the circumstances she had been denied access to a "suitable and appropriate education", and whether she had been denied her human right to manifest her religion on the particular facts of the case. I think you should read the judgment for yourselves, because a lot of the uninformed and offensive debates have revolved around people's ignorance, and from assumptions and so-called quotes from various reliable and unreliable sources. What is striking in this case is how humble the school was in admitting its own ignorance (even though the head teacher is a Muslim who has lived in India, Pakistan, and Bangladesh) and in taking advice from various theological sources, instead of imposing their own views on the pupils. Here is a the judgment
www.bailii.org/cgi-bin/markup.cgi?doc=/ew/cases/EWHC/Admin/2004/1389.html&query=denbigh&method=all
If anyone is interested in learning more about other people's religions, or even their own religion, an excellent resource is www.festivalshop.co.uk which has some lovely children's books and also higher level theology books.

I must say that I would find any sort of long skirt an unacceptable trip hazard in the Lab. The thought of someone falling always worries me and having a loose robe that touches the floor seems so dangerous to the wearer and everyone else in the lab. Lab rules are often different to other school rules, for example no open toes sandels either.

Turnagaicat, do Cheltenham Ladies wear long skirts to school or is it evening wear?

Cheltenham ladies' everyday school skirts are in noway comaparable to the jilbab. They come over the knee and are midcalf at longest. sixth formers skirts are longer but again finish well above the ankle.

in the school i went to there were strict school rules on skirt length, not too short and equally not too long, so guess that the same rules should apply to any long garment.

I wouldn't have a problem if something was high enough up that the student couldn't get caught up in it. Similarly the tunic and trousers outfit (that had been approved by the local Muslin community) would be fine, as the trousers may be loose, but are gathered at the ankle. Head sarves are also fine as long as they are tied back during practical lessons.

But I doublt that the girl would be prepared to 'hitch up' the jilbab in lessons or while going up and down stairs. An accident waiting to happen IMO.

I failed my chemistry practical tottering around in a maxi-skirt and platform clogs...but health and safety hadn't been thought of in those days!

Dinosaur, some of the Oxford reading tree books cover aspects of Islam. At about level 6 I think? We read a few about going to the mosque and the people in the book were in traditional dress.

Blu, I did practicals in the 70's that we could never do now! Trouble is the school will end up getting taken to court if H & S rules are not followed to the letter. On another thread a Fio2 posted that a girl wearing a floor lenth skirt triped in her lesson and broke her nose. The parents threatened to sue even tho the girl had been warned that her style of dess was dangerous!

We live in litigeous times. And it isn't just the safelty of the girl at question. How would someone feel if thir child was burned by an acid spill caused in these circumstances?

hmb - I agree...I was being spuriously faceatious! Actually, if I was head of a primary school, I would stop little girls wearing sloppy sling back sandals or high heels,as they always look so precarious on climbing frames, and platforms are clearly unsuitable for school.