Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

News

Hilary Clinton emails - Explain please

229 replies

hollyisalovelyname · 29/10/2016 09:27

I have no idea what the Hilary Clinton emails 'scandal' is all about.
Could wiser Mumsnetters please explain it to me.
Thank you.

OP posts:
Pluto30 · 31/10/2016 08:33

No, you don't. You can choose not to vote if both the candidates are evil.

I don't think she's the lesser of two evils anyway, no point even trying to convince me that she is. They're the same. Cut from the same cloth, with the amount of shady shit in their history (and present).

merrymouse · 31/10/2016 08:40

If you don't vote, somebody is still elected. If you have a vote and don't use it you are just attempting to absolve yourself of responsibility.

It's easy to say they are both as bad as each other, but without evidence to back that opinion up it isn't worth much.

Pluto30 · 31/10/2016 08:56

Oh, shove off. I'm not in the US, and have voted in every single election: federal, state and local, since I turned 18.

But not voting does not mean you're shirking responsibility; it means you're not voting for someone you don't like and don't agree with, or you're not voting for something you're clueless about.

Feel free to provide "evidence" that Hillary is better than Donald. You won't find any. Most people are in agreement that it's like picking between two turds. Trump vs Sanders would've been a different story entirely.

StorminaBcup · 31/10/2016 09:09

It's easy to say they are both as bad as each other, but without evidence to back that opinion up it isn't worth much.

There's plenty and it doesn't take much digging. Dismissing Trump as an ineffectual troll is stupid at best. Dismissing HRC's misuse of a personal email account is even worse.

merrymouse · 31/10/2016 09:11

Feel free to provide "evidence" that Hillary is better than Donald. You won't find any.

Donald Trump does not understand fundamental concepts like how the American healthcare system works.

He struggles to understand foreign policy.

He cannot speak in sentences.

He cannot talk to people who disagree with him.

There is plenty of evidence that you could grab a random person off the street and find a better President than Trump.

It's like comparing Farage to Theresa May - she is a politician, he is a goady fucker. You don't have to agree with May to see that she is more competent than Farage.

The problem is, Trump makes Farage look vaguely sane.

merrymouse · 31/10/2016 09:11

There's plenty and it doesn't take much digging. Dismissing Trump as an ineffectual troll is stupid at best.

Please do tell me what he has achieved apart from success as a reality TV star.

merrymouse · 31/10/2016 09:14

Dismissing HRC's misuse of a personal email account is even worse.

I'm not dismissing it. In an alternative universe there should have a better opponent. However, she doesn't, she has Trump.

StorminaBcup · 31/10/2016 09:16

He's the presidential candidate for the Republican Party for starters. Unless you're asserting that all Americans who vote for him are idiots too?

Pluto30 · 31/10/2016 09:17

Hillary Clinton has failed to explain to her supporters that public healthcare will result in an enormous income tax hike.

Hillary Clinton wants to impose a no-fly zone over Syria, which experts agree would be like poking the bear, and could very easily lead to a full-scale war.

As for being able to speak in sentences, or not being able to deal with people who disagree... Not sure how that absolves Hillary of her issues. She's got clear health issues that she's been far from transparent about, and she avoids any talk of her constant backflips over issues like marriage equality, abortion, race etc. Not exactly good at dealing with confrontation.

Don't forget, close to half of those people you'd drag in off the street would be Trump/Republican supports. Might damage your hypothesis slightly Wink

merrymouse · 31/10/2016 09:18

He's the presidential candidate for the Republican Party

He didn't really have a very competent group of candidates to run against.

Unless you're asserting that all Americans who vote for him are idiots too?

Please explain why they are not idiots.

merrymouse · 31/10/2016 09:20

Also, to go back to trump's TV background, Ed Balls has done quite well on Strictly. That doesn't make him the best dancer.

Pluto30 · 31/10/2016 09:20

merry Because, Donald, having a difference of opinion does not make a person an idiot.

StorminaBcup · 31/10/2016 09:40

Please explain why they are not idiots

You got me Grin

I just think it's dangerous to dismiss someone like Trump as being a joke. Look at Boris and Farage; a complete PR disaster waiting to happening they won! The trouble with Trump (regardless of what you or they think of his capabilities), is that people agree with what he is saying.

Apologies for derailing your thread slightly OP - you might find this interesting

StorminaBcup · 31/10/2016 09:41

*waiting to happen and they won

ihatethecold · 31/10/2016 09:48

MizzEmma
Interesting link. Thanks.

merrymouse · 31/10/2016 10:01

Don't forget, close to half of those people you'd drag in off the street would be Trump/Republican supports. Might damage your hypothesis slightly

Of course they might support Trump. That doesn't damage my hypothesis that not voting is still choosing who wins by default.

Who knows what health problems Trump has? He hasn't told anyone - They are both about 70 so health is an issue for both candidates. As an older man, statistically the odds are against him.

Trump has no policies whatsoever on healthcare or Syria - he talks about his employees having tremendous problems with obamacare and it's not clear whether he doesn't understand obamacare or he doesn't understand whether his employees have health insurance.

He says he knows more than 'the generals' about Syria, but has only shown very hazy knowledge on the details of the conflict.

Honestly, I dont agree with many of Theresa May's views, but this is like choosing between May and those UKIP politicians who had a bust up in the European Parliament. Given a choice between them and her I would run to vote for May.

There is a choice.

merrymouse · 31/10/2016 10:03

merry Because, Donald, having a difference of opinion does not make a person an idiot.

Opinions have to be backed up by evidence and logic to make them valuable.

All opinions are not equal.

Puzzledandpissedoff · 31/10/2016 19:02

I honestly think Democrats who can't bring themselves to "hold their nose" and vote for Hilary are going to give it to Trump

This is what I've been worried about from the start, although to be fair there's no way I'd be able to support Hillary either if I had a vote

Personally I'm interested to see what she'll save up (or invent?) to throw at Trump in the very last days ...

Pluto30 · 31/10/2016 19:11

merry So if I tell you that, in my opinion, ice cream is better than cake, I have to provide evidence to support that opinion?

No. Opinions are just that. They can be as baseless or as trivial as you want. Look at all of the people who believe in a god. That's an opinion without any evidence, a BELIEF. I don't tell them, "Your opinion is invalid because you can't provide evidence".

Don't be so daft.

merrymouse · 31/10/2016 20:33

'I prefer the taste of ice cream to cake' is a subjective statement.

Whether ice cream is 'better' than cake depends on the context. If, you were advising somebody on whether to sell ice-cream or cake from a food stall, you would need to back up your opinion with evidence based on knowledge of cost, food safety, storage needs, potential selling price, and yes, whether your target audience prefers the taste of ice cream or cake.

Usually It doesn't really matter much why anybody prefers the taste of ice-cream to cake, but if you were a serious food reviewer you would be expected to justify why you preferred one pudding to another.

There might be people who believe that it doesn't matter that somebody as clueless as Donald Trump could be president of the US, but unless they can explain why, their opinion has less value than somebody who can put forward a logical evidence based argument.

We have doctors, engineers and scientists because all opinions are not equal.

CondyLisa · 01/11/2016 05:01

I think it would be much easier to read the Wikipedia article

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillary_Clinton_email_controversy

CondyLisa · 01/11/2016 05:14

"I believe part of her defence is that her server was very secure (set up for Bill by the security services after he left office). It wasn't yahoo mail."

This is a completely ridiculous statement. Bill Clinton left office in January 2001. If the security services HAD (which they had not) setup a server for them then, by this point it would be riddled with security holes. Servers require constant maintenance.

In fact it is not true. The server was setup in 2008 by an Apple employee and a Clinton aide. It was later managed by a tiny company which posted for advice on how to delete emails on Reddit. www.thompsontimeline.com/category/clinton-email-server/timeline-short/

Puzzledandpissedoff · 01/11/2016 17:29

The server ... was later managed by a tiny company which posted for advice on how to delete emails on Reddit

I'm really sorry but I'm howling at that Blush I realize it's not really the right thing to do, but let's face it, if you didn't laugh you'd bloody well cry ...

RortyCrankle · 01/11/2016 17:53

Thanks for the info re the e-mails. I think there's something deeply unpleasant about her but can't put it into words, it's just my spidey senses. I googled 'reasons not to vote for Hillary Clinton' and there were some interesting links. There are also rumblings that she has some major health issues. I personally wouldn't vote for her but nor could I vote for Trump. What a mess.

mathanxiety · 02/11/2016 07:06

This is an issue because it meant that classified government secrets ended up on her private server. The security of her private server is very unlikely to have been as good as the security of the government's servers. It also gave her control over what should and should not be provided to the government, made public via freedom of information requests, passed on the Congressional committees, etc.
[prh47bridge Sat 29-Oct-16 10:00:39]
This is extremely important, and not just for historians or people writing biographies fifty years from now.

This is day-to-day, really important stuff because the holder of an office must be above board and must be seen to be above board, and because public scrutiny of decisions is what democracy is all about. The equally important second reason besides security to have a government e-mail system is transparency. No transparency = the suspicion of underhand decision making = ultimately the end of democracy.

There certainly is a lot of visceral hatred for Hillary.
www.nytimes.com/2016/10/30/opinion/sunday/how-hillary-clinton-met-satan.html?smid=fb-share&_r=0 This is a neat explanation of how it got started and gathered momentum.

However, just because people who are very objectionable hate you doesn't mean you are incapable of doing really stupid and maybe even borderline criminal things, and some of the issues that this e-mail(gate) business brings up are:

  • Does HRC think she is more important than or bigger than or indistinguishable from the office she holds?
    This is really important because your correspondence as Secretary of State is not your personal correspondence. It is the correspondence of the Secretary of State and it should be available for scrutiny by the people and by their representatives and by law enforcement agencies with no law firms vetting it all first.

  • Is HRC loyal to the point of blindness to those who are loyal to her?
    Questions about judgement are valid here.

  • Is HRC capable of making really stupid and dangerous choices because she is not as concerned with details as she should be, or because she thinks she and those in her circle are teflon coated and immune to problem contagion? This brings up the question of disregard for public opinion and also disregard for the law, and more personal qualities like belief in her mission or her destiny causing problems of perspective (by perspective I mean understanding that her role is to represent).

Huma Abedin's stbxh Anthony Weiner has been in hot water for many years now because of sexting. Yet she and he apparently shared a laptop, and apparently confidential material was dealt with using that laptop. www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/nov/1/huma-abedin-often-handled-classified-data-on-compu/

Weiner is a man who was incredibly vulnerable to blackmail, a man who went out positively looking for trouble. This has been known for years by everyone who reads a newspaper or watches the news in the US. This should have made HRC more concerned about the 'small details' of what devices were used by her team, given that she had decided to use a private server.

I agree with Pluto here. The candidates are Turd 1 and Turd 2. I would never identify as Republican and never vote Republican, but I am very glad that DD2 who is a staunch Hillary supporter will not be coming home for Thanksgiving this year. It gets hot enough in my small kitchen without all the grief we would have if she and I and DS were to bring up the topic of the election.

I am glad the FBI Director decided to make the new investigation public. I do not believe has has violated the Hatch Act. His hands were tied and he stood in jeopardy of being accused of purposeful and political silence if he had not made news of the new investigation public. This way he has fulfilled his duty to the people of the US, and the people of the US are in fact the people he answers to, not the Clinton campaign or the Democratic Party.

Additionally, if HRC is elected and tempted to make his head roll, he now has good reason to claim that any future firing of him was politically motivated in order to quelch further investigation and/or as payback for the investigation that has already been carried out. He has also taken steps toward patching cracks in the FBI, some parties in which were immensely angered by the outcome of the previous investigation (no prosecution). I believe he is safeguarding the integrity of his agency and of his office. The criticism that he has attracted from Democratic Party leaders and the HRC campaign is akin to that leveled at Mark Carney, Governor of the BoE, by rabid Brexiters, and it is just as unseemly and disgraceful.

I feel really strongly about keeping the distinction between the person who holds the office and the office itself very clear. HRC should have used the government e-mail system and should not have confused her own person with that of her official role. That is where the rot set in and imo there is a personality issue to blame for the instinct to keep material off the record.

Not sure if UK posters can see this www.pbs.org/video/2365848966/ documentary produced by PBS on the two candidates and threads that have run through each of their lives.

I think what she did bespeaks arrogance and a lack of respect for the institutions that are set up to safeguard democracy - ultimately those institutions have to be bigger than the people who occupy the leading roles in them and function within them. The alternative is people in roles where they do not think themselves answerable to the people. I am not sure someone who says she didn't even think of that aspect of things really understands where she ends and her office begins, and that is a huge problem.

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is closed and is no longer accepting replies. Click here to start a new thread.

Swipe left for the next trending thread