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Hilary Clinton emails - Explain please

229 replies

hollyisalovelyname · 29/10/2016 09:27

I have no idea what the Hilary Clinton emails 'scandal' is all about.
Could wiser Mumsnetters please explain it to me.
Thank you.

OP posts:
ThisIsReallyNotMyName · 02/11/2016 19:54

Amazing how many women are stupid enough to support Hillary Clinton who HATES women. Can't wait to see the inauguration of President Trump. America needs change and Trump will bring welcome change.

ShowMeTheElf · 02/11/2016 19:54

I know then thread has moved on but everyone types much faster than I can google, cut paste and read, so belatedly here's an idiots' guide to the email crisis.
HRCs emails
Were I an American I would renounce my citizenship and leave. It's a disaster either way.

MitzyLeFrouf · 02/11/2016 19:56

Amazing how many women are stupid enough to support Trump, a man who admits sexually assaulting women.

MuseumOfCurry · 02/11/2016 19:58

Were I an American I would renounce my citizenship and leave. It's a disaster either way.

My husband renounced a few years ago, and I'm not too far behind. This is a sad time for Americans - the most dyed in the wool liberals would give their right arm for Reagan right about now.

InfiniteSheldon · 02/11/2016 19:59

Amazing how many women are willing to support Hilary who blamed each and every woman her husband assaulted and abused

MuseumOfCurry · 02/11/2016 20:01

Amazing how many women are willing to support Hilary who blamed each and every woman her husband assaulted and abused

Ain't it true.

merrymouse · 02/11/2016 20:02

www.statnews.com/2016/03/02/donald-trump-vitamin-company/

Here is Trump selling his multi level marketing scheme ('his' in the sense that he gave it his name, not that he took responsibility for it). Anybody unaware of what multi level marketing is should look up 'MLM bot' and 'timeless vie' on Mumsnet.

It's striking how similar his speech is to the kind of spiel he gives at rallies.

Of course it went bust and the people at the bottom of the pyramid were left with a garage full of worthless junk.

merrymouse · 02/11/2016 20:14

Why don't you run off and google it then, merrymouse? We're not your designated lackeys

I'm asking you to formulate an argument where you can quote from Trump and explain why what he says is rational.

I don't believe he has made a rational evidence based argument that includes a plan explaining how he would replace NATO.

If you want to argue that he has, you need to find quotes. I understand that it is easier to argue without evidence, but it's less effective when you are talking to somebody who likes facts.

(I do realise that facts are very last year and many people just like a good Twitter meme).

Inkanta · 02/11/2016 20:31

Well only 6 days to go! Still not sure who I'd vote for if I were an American Citizen. I wonder if there are many U.S. citizens that feel likewise.

Pluto30 · 02/11/2016 20:34

A lot of things Trump says are rational (a lot of things are not).

  1. NAFTA has been an abject failure
  2. A no-fly zone over Syria would be a disaster
  3. Free healthcare and free university has costs that Hillary Clinton has neglected to explain to her supporters
  4. The need for immigration reform
  5. Wanting to increase mental health programs, rather than ban guns (because banning guns won't work in the US)
  6. Ending the disastrous nuclear deal with Iran
  7. Cutting company tax
merrymouse · 02/11/2016 21:00

Anyway, as I love evidence, I found a Donald quote on NATO.

I want to keep Nato, but I want them to pay,” Trump told a rally in Scranton, Pennsylvania. “I don’t want to be taken advantage of … We’re protecting countries that most of the people in this room have never even heard of and we end up in world war three … Give me a break.

“Now if they live up to their obligations, as they should … and by the way if they do that, they’ll have more spirit in a certain way. But they have to pay.”

Some questions:

  1. How much is enough?
  2. how does Donald plan to renegotiate anything? Would he get a more credible person to take his place at international meetings?
  3. this is a list of NATO members. Which of these countries are people in Scranton presumed not to have heard of? Is it marginally better to be called stupid to your face or deplorable behind your back? en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO
  4. Is Donald aware that article 5 was invoked for the first time after 9/11 and that in practice it is more about a commitment to unity than any concrete obligation - a bit like the three musketeers not actually being all for one and one for all by law, but because they maintain a united front ?
  5. I suspect he is aware of point 4, but in Donald world there are only winners and losers. A deal is only a deal if somebody is stiffed and that has to be the other guy. That works to an extent in some businesses, (often those that involve con artists) but not really when you are running a country.
  6. what is "more spirit in a certain way"? Is it to do with having a spirit animal?
Pluto30 · 02/11/2016 21:11

So, despite me listing 7 things he has rational insight on, you're just going to stick with the NATO thing?

Right.

Care to explain to me how Hillary's no-fly zone proposal is a good idea?

Why do you think that the US should be obliged to prop up countries who aren't giving them anything in return? The UK didn't like having to foot the bill for Greece etc's poor fiscal management, and this is no different.

MuseumOfCurry · 02/11/2016 21:31

I suggest you ignore merrymouse.

merrymouse · 02/11/2016 22:11

Apologies Pluto, I didn't see your post.

1. NAFTA has been an abject failure -

Why? For everyone? What would he propose instead? How would this work better?

2. A no-fly zone over Syria would be a disaster

Yes, many people think a no-fly zone would be a bad idea. They have been saying that for quite a long time. Trump sat on the fence for a while, but now seems to want to abandon Syria and focus on ISIS, but it's not really clear how. Really, the main worry would be making sure that Trump was unaware of any insults or slights from other foreign leaders. It's quite clear that he is easily provoked.

3. Free healthcare and free university has costs that Hillary Clinton has neglected to explain to her supporters

Apparently he has managed to pull something together on health.

www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2016/11/health-suspense/506144/

4. The need for immigration reform

The famous wall? The ban on muslims?

5. Wanting to increase mental health programs, rather than ban guns (because banning guns won't work in the US)

A lot of people who use guns in the US aren't mentally ill, including the many children who accidentally kill each other and their parents. I don't think anybody has suggested banning guns in the US. They have suggested banning some guns and tightening up the rules for buying guns. There really aren't words to describe how ridiculous it is that an apparently developed nation can't reform gun control or the stupidity of blaming America's gun problem on the mentally ill.

6. Ending the disastrous nuclear deal with Iran

And then doing what?

7. Cutting company tax

You can't really look at a tax plan without looking at all taxes:

Tax Policy Centre

"This paper analyzes presidential candidate DonaldTrump’s tax proposal. His plan would significantly reducemarginal tax rates onindividuals and businesses, increase standard deduction amountsto nearly four times current levels, and curtail manytax expenditures. His proposal would cut taxes at all income levels, although the largest benefits, in dollar and percentage terms, would go to the highest-income households. The plan would reduce federal revenues by $9.5 trillion over its first decade before accounting for added interest costs or considering macroeconomicfeedbackeffects. The plan would improve incentives to work, save, and invest. However, unless it is accompanied by very large spending cuts, it could increase the national debt by nearly80percent of gross domestic productby 2036, offsettingsome or all of the incentive effects of the tax cuts"

And he is still just a dodgy salesman who couldn't resist bragging to Billy Bush about groping women at almost 60, because in Trump world that is how you behave if you are a 'Playboy'.

I may disagree with many things that Theresa May has said and done over the years, but given a choice between Jeremy Clarkson and Theresa May, I would vote for Theresa May, and given a choice between Jeremy Clarkson and Donald Trump, Jeremy Clarkson just might clinch the deal.

GiddyOnZackHunt · 02/11/2016 22:14

The UK didn't have to prop up Greece. We aren't part of the Eurozone.

merrymouse · 02/11/2016 22:14

I suggest you ignore merrymouse.

So you didn't find any good quotes then.

merrymouse · 02/11/2016 22:25

Why do you think that the US should be obliged to prop up countries who aren't giving them anything in return?

Given that article 5 was invoked for the first time after 9/11, it would seem that it isn't only the US that is doing the 'propping up'.

However, generally countries 'prop other countries up' because it is in their interests that those countries are stable politically and economically.

It is good to have allies.

That is probably a bit confusing if you think you can apply a business policy of "screw everybody else" to world affairs.

mathanxiety · 03/11/2016 02:34

How do you bomb the shit out of ISIS? Russia appear to be trying to do that and they are bombing hospitals on behalf of a president who used chemical weapons against his own people

This is no longer about who did what, to whom, and with what. It is not a game of Cluedo.

You keep on bombing until they give up. In order not to allow such a situation to arise again, you do not start or support uprisings against sitting presidents in a region that is extremely vulnerable to Islamic fundamentalism. No matter how odious the tinpot dictator may be, you do not cause destabilisation unless you are willing to put troops on the ground and finish what you started, if revolution or a coup or 'regime change' (aka interference in the affairs of a sovereign state) is what you want. You do not delegate to amateurs in the country yourself and seek to limit American expenditure of lives and money, playing games in other countries on the cheap.

Russia is doing the right thing in Syria in seeking to stop the insurgency and restore government by a person who will owe Russia a huge debt once the dust settles and may be amenable to persuasion on matters like civil/human rights, stance on Israel, etc.

Like it or not, the US supports Israel, first and last, in the middle east. Allowing ISIS to take over Syria would put Israel in immediate jeopardy, and this is the enmity that has a chance to ignite WW3. Israel is governed at the moment by a bunch of utter yahoos who are only stopped from nuclear intervention because Russia has taken action.

'Obliterate Iran' is in retaliation for a nuclear strike against Israel. It's not a general policy to combat terrorism You are right. It's a general policy that would result in nuclear annihilation, with life as we know it going up in a mushroom cloud, solving all of our global warming and terrorism problems and MIL /Christmas problems with one fell swoop. If this is her only answer to the very complex questions posed by the middle east then we should all be worried.

ISIS must be stopped, and it is truly a tragedy that hospitals are being caught in the crossfire, but the only way to stop them is by physically wiping them out.

Sense about NATO?
NATO is not a way to combat terrorism. It is a hangover from the Cold War that has outlived its purpose, in which decision making is chaotic and carried out at tortoise pace. In practical terms, NATO troops in exercises do not co-ordinate or communicate well. All members should pay their own way. None of this is controversial. Barack Obama himself referred to some US allies as 'free riders'.

www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/2016/10/30/the-fatal-expense-american-imperialism/teXS2xwA1UJbYd10WJBHHM/story.html?p1=Article_Recommended_ReadMore_Pos2 Food for thought from Jeffrey Sachs on 'guns vs butter'. Or 'bread vs circuses'. (This is also an interesting read for those convinced that Russia is a threat to world peace, has imperial ambitions, etc.) It is not popular to talk of ending America's imperial pretensions, but someone has to.

'THE QUARTER CENTURY since 1991 has therefore been marked by a perpetual US war in the Middle East, one that has destabilized the region, massively diverted resources away from civilian needs toward the military, and helped to create mass budget deficits and the buildup of public debt. The imperial thinking has led to wars of regime change in Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Yemen, Somalia, and Syria, across four presidencies: George H.W. Bush, Bill Clinton, George W. Bush, and Barack Obama. The same thinking has induced the United States to expand NATO to Russia’s borders, despite the fact that NATO’s supposed purpose was to defend against an adversary — the Soviet Union — that no longer exists. Former Soviet president Mikhail Gorbachev has emphasized that eastward NATO expansion “was certainly a violation of the spirit of those declarations and assurances that we were given in 1990,” regarding the future of East-West security.

There is a major economic difference, however, between now and 1991, much less 1950. At the start of the Cold War, in 1950, the United States produced around 27 percent of world output. As of 1991, when the Dick Cheney and Paul Wolfowitz dreams of US dominance were taking shape, the United States accounted for around 22 percent of world production. By now, according to IMF estimates, the US share is 16 percent, while China has surpassed the United States, at around 18 percent. By 2021, according to projections by the International Monetary Fund, the United States will produce roughly 15 percent of global output compared with China’s 20 percent. The United States is incurring massive public debt and cutting back on urgent public investments at home in order to sustain a dysfunctional, militarized, and costly foreign policy...

...Many American conservatives will sneer at the very thought that the United States’ room for maneuver should be limited in the slightest by the UN. But think how much better off the United States would be today had it heeded the UN Security Council’s wise opposition to the wars of regime change in Iraq, Libya, and Syria. Many conservatives will point to Vladimir Putin’s actions in Crimea as proof that diplomacy with Russia is useless, without recognizing that it was NATO’s expansion to the Baltics and its 2008 invitation to Ukraine to join NATO, that was a primary trigger of Putin’s response.'

mathanxiety · 03/11/2016 03:07

www.bostonglobe.com/ideas/2016/10/29/the-looming-age-aggression/wkwGfqb9Tc6Lu9102HpfuK/story.html?p1=Article_Recommended_ReadMore_Pos15

HRC's record as Secretary of State features no major negotiation. Look forward to even more US aggression no matter who gets elected.

merrymouse · 03/11/2016 07:41

Thank you for your considered response Math.

I don't think there is an easy answer to what to do about Syria.

Islamic terrorist movements exist as much on the Internet as they do as a physical entity that can be wiped out. It might be possible to bomb every last person remaining in Syria and get rid of that branch of the movement. However, that creates fertile conditions for terrorist movements elsewhere, particularly when a prospective candidate for US president suggests that all Muslims should be registered and that Muslims shouldn't be allowed to enter America. This kind of rhetoric is worrying not just for America but for every country seen to be allied with America? What if he becomes president? Those words can't now be unsaid.

Supporting tin pot dictators is not without risk. It's certainly a strategy that the west has used in the past and continues to use. However, dictators aren't always grateful, they don't always do what they are told and supporting them usually creates problems further down the line. Sometimes, as in Iran, they don't manage to stay in power, despite the best efforts of the west.

However, tinpot dictators are often in control of resources that the west needs, so they are difficult to ignore.

Thank you for your points about NATO, math. However, Trump doesn't seem to like the UN either. All international organisations have flaws - the EU, the UN - however, they are the bureaucracy that has evolved, however imperfectly, to bring countries together to work with each other. I might think all my local councillors are jumped up idiots, but without the local council there wouldn't be a local fire station or rubbish collection. How would Trump talk to other world leaders? An isolationist foreign policy only works if world affairs allow. Creating an alternative to NATO, formally or informally, would require diplomacy skills that Trump doesn't have.

I take on board all your points about Clinton, but at this point the choice is between two candidates, one of whom can talk in sentences, and has shown herself capable of being in the same room with other foreign leaders without causing offence. The other can be provoked into a week long incoherent strop on twitter by a simple remark about a beauty queen, or worse a speech by Khizr Khan. He can't even hold back from insulting the Republican Party and it's leaders during a general election. His bleating about Obama's birth certificate was deranged. The best that can be said about Trump is that sometimes he sounds like he might be expressing an opinion that somebody else has expressed coherently, even if he can't do so himself. And then you remember that he is apparently concerned that Obama might be a Muslim.

There is no longer a choice between Clinton and optimistic. It's Clinton or jump off a cliff.

MuseumOfCurry · 03/11/2016 08:51

NATO is not a way to combat terrorism. It is a hangover from the Cold War that has outlived its purpose, in which decision making is chaotic and carried out at tortoise pace. In practical terms, NATO troops in exercises do not co-ordinate or communicate well. All members should pay their own way. None of this is controversial. Barack Obama himself referred to some US allies as 'free riders'.

Quite right. The NATO irritation has been simmering for a long time in the US and it gained enormous traction internationally after Trump raised it, but it was Obama who kicked it off a couple of years ago.

Trump on NATO is the quintessential nugget of sensibility wrapped in a larger vessel of absurdity.

CoolCarrie · 03/11/2016 19:22

KickAssAngel, are you on something? I do hope you are having a laugh with your comment, trump is a joke, and if he wins the usa will be the laughing stock of the world.

mathanxiety · 04/11/2016 05:42

The US doesn't like the UN, period. It's not just Trump. The US is happy to address the UN before embarking on some illegal adventure, hoping for a rubber stamp - Iraq springs to mind. Otherwise, the US sees the UN as irrelevant.

The reason the US pooh-poohs the UN is that they are the bureaucracy that has evolved, however imperfectly, to bring countries together to work with each other. (to quote you, Merrymouse). The US really has no interest in working together with other countries. Ultimately any alliance will be dominated by the US, and will serve only the interests of the US. Hence Europe being dragged into NATO's posturing against Russia. It is not in Europe's best interests to be tied to an American foreign policy that is openly antagonistic towards Russia (which was given certain guarantees in the years right after the breakup of the Soviet Union, as I think Sachs points out).

Trump would have the same difficulty as Clinton has in dealing with world leaders - America wants to play the game America's way. This doesn't always go down well.

Trump didn't get where he is by not talking to people, doing deals, shooting from the lip. Neither did Clinton (less shooting from the lip), but imo Clinton is hampered by years of exposure to State Department certainties and the Walsh School of Foreign Service doctrines that dominate Washington.

The idea that the US can engage in 'regime change' is incredibly dangerous and fuels much anti-US and anti western feeling all over the world. Clinton has no problem with the concept. The US has no more right to depose leaders of other countries than North Korea or Norway or Ireland has.

I don't think it's wise to look down the nose at 'incoherence' or other attributes that are unusual in a politician. There certainly is a good deal of absurdity but once you get past that there are nuggets (thank you for that, MuseumofCurry). Talking in sentences isn't all that when your sentences are about bombing Iran.
And imo, being deeply critical of the GOP is a good thing and the more intemperate the criticism the better.

I did not intend to come across as a Trump supporter in any way, shape or form here.

I think there is no cause for optimism at all no matter what the outcome of this election.

merrymouse · 04/11/2016 07:08

The US doesn't like the UN, period. It's not just Trump. The US is happy to address the UN before embarking on some illegal adventure, hoping for a rubber stamp - Iraq springs to mind. Otherwise, the US sees the UN as irrelevant.

Yes, that does seem to be the case, but I mentioned the UN because both articles you linked to suggest the way forward is more UN lead diplomacy.

"The far smarter approach will be to maintain America’s defensive capabilities but end its imperial pretensions. This, in practice, means cutting back on the far-flung network of military bases, ending wars of regime change, avoiding a new arms race (especially in next-generation nuclear weapons), and engaging China, India, Russia, and other regional powers in stepped-up diplomacy through the United Nations"

Ultimately any alliance will be dominated by the US, and will serve only the interests of the US

Yes, which is why the suggestion that the US has been forced by NATO to act against it's own wishes is a little far fetched.

Trump would have the same difficulty as Clinton has in dealing with world leaders - America wants to play the game America's way. This doesn't always go down well.

Many countries value their alliance with America. Britain is probably one of the most obvious. The complete list of things that Trump has done to offend the British people is too long to repeat here, although I think wanting to ban Muslims from the US would be near the top. Many presidents and presidential candidates have been unpopular with groups of British people for various reasons. However, Trump would be the first one who was the subject of a campaign to deny him access, where all major political leaders broadly agreed with the sentiments of the campaigners, if not the legality of having such a ban.

Of course that was all pre Brexit. I have no doubt that many Farage supporters think Trump is absolutely great and love him for showing such respect to their man. In post-truth Britain, many people are probably happy that Trump endorses their fears about foreigners, women and other races. Goodness, if a potential president of the United States can troll people on twitter and boast about groping women whey shouldn't they?* How much better will it be for them if he actually become president?

(*Yes, I know Bill Clinton's past is far from perfect, but in this presidential election, degrees of difference matter, and he is not standing for president.)

Trump didn't get where he is by not talking to people, doing deals, shooting from the lip.

I'm not sure what shooting from the lip is or why it would be a good quality in a president. He certainly can't resist trolling people on Twitter.

However, where is Trump? He has certainly been able to buy a lot of stuff over the years, but it seems that quite a lot hasn't been paid for. He is very good at selling a certain kind of product to a certain kind of person, (Multi level marketing schemes for instance), and he is a very successful reality TV star. However it's not clear how much money he has or why. His golf courses in Scotland are apparently making a loss - is that a tax dodge or bad management? Who knows? He seems to like a feud and has spent years engaged in various disagreements with locals and planners.

In the smaller pond of running a business, deliberately conning people can take you quite far. There are lots of people and you only have to defraud some of them. That doesn't work so well when you are running a country.

He won the Republican nomination, but the rest of the field were rather woeful.

Talking in sentences isn't all that when your sentences are about bombing Iran.

Bombing Iran was threatened in the specific case of Iran launching a nuclear strike on Israel. I would quite like it if Iran didn't send nuclear bombs to the mediterranean. It's not really clear what Donald would do instead. He has certainly made it clear that he would use nuclear weapons.

If American doesn't want somebody who can talk in sentences as president, really, what is the point of having a president? Is it time to call a day on the whole republic idea and give the Queen a call?

Lweji · 04/11/2016 10:38

The NATO irritation has been simmering for a long time in the US and it gained enormous traction internationally after Trump raised it, but it was Obama who kicked it off a couple of years ago.

NATO has been an instrument of the US for international influence. I don't think there's such thing as "free riders" here.

In a way it can insure peace much better than the UN, as it's less likely that any country can act like Germany in WW2 and go for one country at a time with hardly any consequences. If something like NATO existed at the time, the UK and the US would have gone to war earlier. Maybe Hitler would have thought twice.

I think it's still valid to some extent today, no matter how bad NATO works in effect.

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