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Ched Evans Cleared - I Still Believe Her

560 replies

ChampagneCommunist · 14/10/2016 14:45

Just seen this in the BBC website. His poor, poor victim

OP posts:
NinjaFeminist · 17/10/2016 16:42

Datun that's exactly it - which is why I'm so angry at the fact this 'evidence' was allowed to be included & relied upon. But I'm more angry that the jury believed it.

LineyReborn · 17/10/2016 16:53

And am I right in thinking the jury asked to see Clayton McDonald's original statement to the police and were denied it?

And asked to see the kebab shop footage again and were told No, they'd already seen it? I know I read that, but is it correct?

I can understand that nothing from the first trial could be alluded to, but statements to the police shortly after the actual events ate surely evidence?

And where is that mobile phone footage? Why weren't those two called, or their witness statements used? Why no conspiracy charges - it all must have been planned, what with the room booking, the texting, the filming at just the right window...

A man in Rotherham was just found guilty of 'conspiracy to commit indecent assault'. These charges exist.

Datun · 17/10/2016 17:06

I've read a lot of posts across the threads from very sensible, level headed people who understand the law. None of whom seem to be outraged over the fact that the jury had very little idea that the witnesses could have changed their story, after having contact with the Evans family. But the appeal court knew it! It was the entire basis for the appeal in first place. Is that right? It's right there in black and white!!

WomanWithAltitude · 17/10/2016 17:09

Actually, I think lots of people are outraged about it.

It is clear that the witnesses only described the specific words and behaviour that would help CE after they CE's description had been reported in the media and elsewhere and after a reward of £50k had been offered.

It's just one of many aspects that make this case an absolute travesty. It's not 'justice' as any rational person would recognise it.

WomanWithAltitude · 17/10/2016 17:10

^ ignore the random 'they'. Bloody autocorrect.

Datun · 17/10/2016 17:14

I can't see how it's even legal. It was a stretch to allow her sexual past in the first place. The PDF says they were hesitant. So when the credibility of the witness testimony is so shot through with holes, how did they make the backwards leap 'oh we'll definitely allow it NOW'.

I don't understand how the media is not making more of it.

Datun · 17/10/2016 17:16

I had sort of assumed that somewhere the timeline had got muddled, but after reading that PDF- no.

WomanWithAltitude · 17/10/2016 17:19

I think it's heartening that I haven't seen a single newspaper that has gone with a 'poor ched, vindicated after all these years' type headline in how they've covered the verdict.

All the ones I've seen have highlighted the 50k etc and generally expressed contempt for him and for his team's tactics (both in and out of court).

I guess they can't make more of the bribe/reward because it seems that it's not illegal (though it should be) and no one can prove the witnesses took the money. If it can't be proved, the media will be careful not to libel them.

I'd bet my annual salary that those witnesses get expensive 'gifts' for Christmas, or have some debts cleared by a mysterious benefactor though. Scumbags.

merrymouse · 17/10/2016 17:25

It is clear that the witnesses only described the specific words and behaviour that would help CE after they CE's description had been reported in the media and elsewhere and after a reward of £50k had been offered.

Even without the media coverage, it's also clear that Ched's 'supporters' were quite prepared to push the law past the point of breaking it. It's difficult to know how the CPR can compete - they are bound by the law and don't have limitless resources.

Datun · 17/10/2016 17:28

Yes, I agree re the papers. I just wish that the witness's relationship with the family was reported more. And how he changed his story.

And who the hell js Jordan Davies? The court papers said he was the one who 'found' the second witness. Isn't he a reality TV star ? Is it the same one ?

Datun · 17/10/2016 17:29

Murkier and murkier

WaitroseCoffeeCostaCup · 17/10/2016 17:32

I believe her.

WomanWithAltitude · 17/10/2016 17:33

CE's team broke the law in other ways too. Publishing cctv footage of the victim online (which wasn't allowed) on their despicable 'support ched' website. Naming and hounding his victim online etc. They haven't given a shit about staying on the right side of the law from the start!

CE may try to distance himself from it now, but he and his family can't claim the online harassment has nothing to do with them - at least one of his relatives was among those convicted of naming her, and his fiance described Ciaran Goggins (one of the worst trolls) as a 'true friend and supporter'.

prh47bridge · 17/10/2016 18:12

None of whom seem to be outraged over the fact that the jury had very little idea that the witnesses could have changed their story, after having contact with the Evans family. But the appeal court knew it! It was the entire basis for the appeal in first place

Changed their story implies their initial story was different to their final statement. It wasn't. However, their initial statements were much less detailed. They did not answer questions they weren't asked. Without seeing a full transcript of the trial I don't know what questions the prosecution asked but they were certainly entitled to put any differences between the witnesses final statements and their original statements to them. They will have done everything they can to discredit the new witnesses. However, the fact that there was independent corroboration of at least some of their evidence and the apparent inability of the victim to deny the remainder may have been enough to persuade the jury that these witnesses were sufficiently credible to cast reasonable doubt on the conviction.

they are bound by the law and don't have limitless resources

No they don't but they have far more resources than any defendant. It is very unusual for the defence to be able to outspend the prosecution (CPS and police) in a high profile case.

but statements to the police shortly after the actual events ate surely evidence

Only if one side chooses to put them into evidence. Unless the prosecution or the defence put McDonald's initial statement into evidence the jury is not entitled to see it.

Why no conspiracy charges - it all must have been planned

Because there is no evidence of planning. And without a rape conviction there can be no conspiracy conviction.

And then when they found out that they WERE in the public domain, they allowed it anyway

The same rules apply to the Court of Appeal. They must make their decision based on the evidence presented by the prosecution and the defence. When the information about what was in the public domain became available they invited both sides to make further submissions. Neither side made any submissions. The Court of Appeal therefore has to ignore this information. Note that the Court of Appeal did not have to decide whether or not they believed the new witnesses, just whether or not their evidence was capable of belief. It was up to the jury to decide whether or not to accept their evidence.

Mightymouse - My apologies. I had forgotten that there is a very rarely used provision of the relevant law that allows evidence of the victim's sexual history as evidence of consent if the description of the previous encounters is so similar to the description given by the alleged rapist that it is unlikely to be coincidence.

it seems that it's not illegal (though it should be)

Why? Prosecuting authorities frequently offer rewards for information leading to conviction. Why should it be illegal for the defence to do the same? The jury certainly need to know if witnesses are being paid and particularly if payment is dependent on the verdict. In this case both the new witnesses denied that they have received any payment or will do so in future. If that turns out to be false they could face prosecution for perjury.

WomanWithAltitude · 17/10/2016 18:21

Prosecutors don't show new witnesses the statements of an existing witness (whose account they are there to corroborate). If they tried to, the defence would have a field day with it!

That is effectively what has happened here.

LineyReborn · 17/10/2016 18:21

I'm fairly sure it's an offence to film someone having sex without their consent. There are various other potential charges available to the CPS regarding that night.

I do wonder about the CPS's approach to this second trial, though. Not placing CM's statement into evidence - if that's what happened - what's that all about?

WomanWithAltitude · 17/10/2016 18:27

And I definitely disagree with the CoA on what might be beyond a 'coincidence'.

Even if both witnesses were 100% telling the truth, having sex 'doggy style' and saying 'go harder' is so normal that it's right up there with 'have you got a condom' and 'oh god, yes' in terms of what the average person (particularly a young person who's grown up watching porn) might be expected to say/do during sex. It does not demonstrate an unusual correlation in the slightest, and it doesn't even need a coincidence to explain it.

WomanWithAltitude · 17/10/2016 18:28

There must have been some reason they couldn't use it. Perhaps connected to his being a previous codefendent?

Marbleheadjohnson · 17/10/2016 18:29

It is an offence. His brother should would never have found employment as a teacher with that kind of offence on a criminal record.

Marbleheadjohnson · 17/10/2016 18:30

Not sure how that would crept in...
I mean, if someone had been convicted of that kind of crime I would hope they wouldn't be employed in a position that gave them supervision of vulnerable people

ageingrunner · 17/10/2016 18:33

Especially teenage girls, as the brother is apparently teaching in a secondary school. And in a position to influence teenage boys too Angry

LineyReborn · 17/10/2016 18:35

So if filming a person having sex in a private bedroom without their consent is an offence, then people helping to set that up and / or join in with that would also be committing an offence? Isn't that perhaps a thing called conspiracy?

Marbleheadjohnson · 17/10/2016 18:42

I suppose it's fine. If you're in his class and accused of sexually harrassing a female classmate, just round up a couple of your guy mates and tell Mr Roberts that she was literally asking for it. He wouldn't have a leg to stand on if he started asking "how would you possibly know?", as his knowledge of consent is somewhat lacking even now he claims to be less immature

merrymouse · 17/10/2016 18:53

No they don't but they have far more resources than any defendant. It is very unusual for the defence to be able to outspend the prosecution (CPS and police) in a high profile case.

Thanks - that's an enlightening perspective. However a wealthy defendant would seem to have the ability to keep spending money pursuing a particular point, whereas the crown, presumably at some point have to decide where to spend competing resources.

I can only assume that 'you had to be there' to understand why the jury accepted the evidence of the two witnesses and why they thought the descriptions and words used were identifying enough to cast doubt on the conviction.

I still don't understand how this case is so unusual that that evidence of the victim's past sex life would be unlikely to be used in a similar way in other cases. The hurdle that the defence team had to jump to show that the descriptions were beyond coincidence and that the witnesses hadn't been fed information seems very low.

merrymouse · 17/10/2016 19:01

If that turns out to be false they could face prosecution for perjury

How would it turn out to be false though? Who would check? It's unlikely that a check for £50,000 will appear in either's bank account, but there are many different ways to influence people.

It all seems to be a bit like taking somebody's word that they haven't seen an exam paper.

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