Single parenet benefits proposed to end when youngest child is 11 rahter than 16

[uwila]

Oh this will be popular round here.

here

yeah it makes the middle classes feeluncomfortable

custardo, it's just definitions. I mean underclass in the sense of those opted out of society, generally incompetent, often low IQ, in aability to turn up at work on time, often with mental illness, drink, drug problems, criminal records within the family etc Usually a wide range of problems. Then working class who may well not be working at present but work hard, get the children to school and whose children may well do fine. People fall on hard times for lots of reasons but I still support my original point that if we want more babies born in the UK it's going to better if they're born into homes where the parenting is good, the parents or parent works - i.e. tax payers not into poor homes. Middleclass children on the whole do better however unfair that may seem. Luckily we don't have rigid caste systems like parts of India so there are chances of social and economic mobility which many seize.

That's lovely, mozhe. To know how caring and sympathetic you are to your patients.

My child will need to apply for DLA.

It's good to know I can count on her GP to be objective, professional and unbiased when it comes to assessing her claim.

And it's good to know that I work at this low-paid job to pay people like you to make judgement and value decisions about me when you're supposed to be treating me as a professional.

cust, those 8 classifications are not too different though are they? 8 never worked is actually less sophisticated than my class of those who don't work because I'd divide that class 8 into underclass and working class but out of work.

Obviously many of the disabled would prefer to be in full time work and not claim any benefits. We still have people in the UK who on moral principle won't claim a benefit to which they're entitled.

F, didn't say otherwise. I just said children of the underclass, not hardworking working class like you, tend not to do so well and so we want more middle class babies born or so a lot of countries think and encourage through the tax system. There's also an argument there are far too many people on the planet anyway and we'd be better off with a Chinese 1 child policy.

round here the middle class seem to be quite able to breed loads of children. the people who have to watch how many they have are the working class, the people who aren't entitled to any benefits and whose wages never seem to go up with inflation.

And how would you feel, Xenia, if someone had imposed such a population control on yourself?

Or on your own children?

Would you feel that's right?

Making judgements is part of the job....and we all use our value base to inform our decisions. I don't work with children and I'm not a GP,the patients I worked with have a narrow range of mental health problems which I believe would actively be helped by working..but the system makes this very difficult to achieve. I found that other professions took no small amount of pride in ' maxing out ' the patients benefits, and when I tried to put across my views I was subjected to all sorts of P.C drivel.
I am quite sure DLA may be entirely appropriate for your daughter expat....after all she is a child, doesn't work/pay rent/council tax etc.It probably works far better for children...maybe it should only be for children ? Giving my former patients a ' maxed out ' benefits income actually things a lot worse for them in the long run...real social work would have included working like billy-o on the social inclusion agenda not perfecting the art of filling in forms.

definitions. well charles murray certainly defined the underclass much like marx had done much earlier with his 'rabble-proletariat'

however what both definitions talk about is how people have opted out.

which seems to be getting mixed up with people being forced out or excluded by the prevailing system

now, it easy to spout about personal responsability in a society proclaiming to be free. when your poor - you have, the worst housing, poor education, and where someone only says nice things when you have a baby. you only feel special when you have a baby.

so, what the poor can control is sex and procreation.

instead of advocating policies where poor people get better education, more hope - free university education maybe?, childcare places for continuing education...but the chance to change the prevailing culture.

you advocate enforced steralisation until the middle classes say its ok for poor people to have a baby.

there is also the assumtion that becuase your poor, your a bad parent.

just becuase your rich doesnt make you a good parent

just becuase your children go to private school and you afford them a 'city' job. doesnt make you a good parent.

you assume we should all aspire to be middle class - well i would rather slit mi fanjo with multiple razor blades.

OOh, it seems I'm now working class and not one of the underclass according to Xenia. Whoopie doo! I feel so much better.

Xenia, some of your comments have made me so fucking angry!! especially these ones...

** I don't agree. The underclass breed the underclass everywhere on the planet with lovely and notable exceptions from time to time but not in genreal thus we need the middle classes to brred and the encouragement to be things that help them like tax allowances and not things that encourage those whose children are likely to grow up as petty criminals or worse.

** People fall on hard times for lots of reasons but I still support my original point that if we want more babies born in the UK it's going to better if they're born into homes where the parenting is good, the parents or parent works - i.e. tax payers not into poor homes

Your whole attitude to people in situations like me is absolutely terrible!! I am 22 single parent of a 2 year old. We have no contact with his dad or his family and very limited help from my own family due to their own situations. i get about £400 per month benefits and after bills and food are paid for i have about £20 to last me the month. I cant work as i wouldn't be any better off and i would rather look after my son myself than work long hours for absolutely nothing and not see him. I cant even go to college as there is no gov't funding for nurseries which in my area is £35 per day. How the hell am i supposed to pay that to get further education?
Im now doing an OU course which yes, i got paid for me.One day i wont be on benefits and i will have a great well paid job and be able to support my son myself. I worked full time from age 16-20 after i got my GCSEs(which i also worked damn hard for) and have paid my fair share over the years of taxes and NI so why should i feel bad about accepting help im entitled to? Well i do feel bad about it, because of people like you!! This isn't the situation i wanted for me or my son but its what im in now so who are you to judge who should and shouldn't have children and who makes a good parent or not? I word damn hard giving my ds the best life i possibly can with what little i have so don't you dare judge

I don't mind being people's whipping boy but my point was much narrower than the one you're making it. I talked about tax incentives to the better off to have more babies because we need more children born in the UK and those countries which target those at the middle classes. I certainly didn't advocate sterilisation.

However many middle class women put off having children into their 30s because they can't afford them earlier - they're in a different kind of trap from a benefits trap in a sense.

custardo, arguably it's the underclass who don't properly control their having of babies at a young age though isn't it rather than them controlling it unless we're saying they deliberately have them when they can't afford them.

juicyc, good for you. When I was your age I had a 1 year old and worked full time and was married so we had two incomes, not one but it was still hard. A whole one of our incomes went on child care only. My own 22 year old, that same baby, has chosen not to have children yet and she and I are funding her education ourselves.

Anyway there are no tax incentives to the middle classes to have children in the UK. We are solvinv the birth crisis by letting hard working and largely to me anyway very welcome immigrants in and I am sure we will all benefit more by that than persuading the middle classes all to have four children.

fwiw juicy, I value you more than I value the likes of xenia, smply because you choose to invest in your children rather than in your bank balance.

Just trying to imagine living in a society run by xenias standards (shudder)

Earlier on, xenia you said something about needing more nurses and teachers to have kids, sorry but I don't know many nurses and teachers that don't claim tax credits. but is that ok?

I've worked with young parents that you would discribe as 'underclass', I have seen some pretty wonderful parenting from them, it's not their fault they were born into this, but with a little investment in them as people, to be treated as equal citizens, they would stand a much better chance of 'breaking that cycle' you talk about

if real opportunities were available to them then they would make the choice for better lives.

but to limit their choices further will not 'stop them breeding more of themselves'

Can't you see that if you paid a little more tax, for the prilalidge of being so effing marvelous, and opened your narrow mind a smidge, you might just get a bit more of your own way... more people working, and less people forced into a life so sub-standard to your own.

yes xenia, people do have children when they cant afford to.

I can't bear this term 'underclass' it's so vile.

xenia,
can't you see that to break this cycle you will need to invest heavily in education, quality of life, and opprtunity specifically to these people so they are able to better themselves.

otherwise they will choose to do all they know to do, have children and love their children and cope the very best they can on benefits.

stopping their benefit might force some into benefit fraud or god knows what in order to get by, but it will not stop people having babies.

aren't you supposed to be intelligent? do you not see this?

I didn't say what you said I said, if you read below.
I think this Government is trying to do that, improve schools, help those in poorer homes, provide more childcare and training (look at the 22 year old below getting the free OU course).
You need to try to break that cycle of deprivation. Sometimes it's broken by getting people into work though. That then helps to buy them into society they have a vested interest in and pay taxes for. It works.

It's also education which helps ensure girls have babies at a stage in their lives which is sensible.

so are you saying yo agree now?

or do you still think they should be made to work?

Yes....almost no one whose children are 11+ should be loafing around at home,( parents with very disabled children are clearly the exception ), for goodness sake why ? They are taking up valuable resources that could be redistributed to, say, the parent with a very disabled child.

Could you work harder/longer ? I would,( and have in the past ), if I thought I needed to earn more £££ to bring up my kids. In U.S it is common to work 2 jobs to provide for your family......how about it Fio ? I'm sure plenty on here could give you a few tips..

A lot of single mothers work nights. They work in pubs. They clean etc. I've often worked long and into the night even doing fairly badly paid stuff like marking exam papers although I don't do that any more.

Do I agree? I think all benefits should be worked for except if the person truly cannot do any work even work at home stuffing envelopes with Goverment leaflets which many people in wheelchairs could do. It makes people more satisfied with life, a job well done and makes tax payers happier too. Most parents who are married with children over 11 have to work. I don't see why parents on benefits should be in some special category that means they are exempt from having to work.

Yes, in the US it's also common to get shot in a road rage incident.

And to go bankrupt and lose your home due to medical bills you can't afford to pay - even though you have health insurance.

Such a great solution, in fact, their economy is slipping towards recession.

Education is sometimes no substitute for imagination and creativity, I see.

Perhaps there are alternative solutions to 'work more, work harder'.

And 'throw money at it', for that matter.

mozhe that was kind of addressed to xenia who beleives all mothers should have to work no matter what age of the child. and no matter what the curcumstances.

an 11 year old needs a parent at home after school hours and during holidays as much as a toddler, if we are gonna try and stop them becoming layabout criminals or whatever, that is.

do you not think we are in need of some support for parents who can work there, (every class)

no you probably don't.