Single parenet benefits proposed to end when youngest child is 11 rahter than 16

[uwila]

Oh this will be popular round here.

here

Do a google search now and you'll see study after study showing that many of those who grow up in poverty and particularly with parents who have in a sense opted out of society and work as most of us know it (what is known as the underclass) tend to have children who repeat the pattern. It is a very well known cycle of deprivation and if you haven't heard of it I suggest you go and check and make sure your own children break the cycle if you are in that position rather than castigate me for saying so.

It is why countries do target incentives to have children at the middle class. It makes sense for the country as a whole.

I am not just talking about families with only one parent at home of course either. Many of those people (and there are vast swathes of estates of them in Newcastle where i'm from and all over the place) do manage to do better than the generation before them but on the whole it is harder for them than themiddle classes.

(Reference to trust fund children is so small a number and so small a number of those who cause cost to the country it is not really worth mentioning and I said the middleclasses not the very rich; the very rich can afford to have as many children as they like and support them - it's why you can get very large poor families, middle classes who cannot easily afford more than 1 or 2 and then rich families with lots)

Oh FFS.

Let's not change society, let's just stop the wrong people breeding.

I don't really know why I'm bothering...

Xenia would give Adam Smith a run for his money ANY day!

For some of us, life means more than money and work.

But of course, to some, that means such people are underclass, thick and destined to a life of poverty and spawning criminals.

No, Fio.

Working poor shouldn't have them, because they can't afford them.

I said underclass, not working class. I also didn't say they couldn't have children. It is China and Nazi Germany which have tried to control fertility. France and other places try to increase the birthrate of the better off families who are largely those who have stopped breeding by more subtle tax means. Another solution is to let more hard working people into the country from abroad which I would also support as an alternative to the population problem.

Why do you think families where the parents have never worked for 2 generations are likely to produce children who will contribute to society more than a family where the parents have always worked? It's ridiculous to suggest you're right. It's almost comical.

No you're wrong that it's just China and Nazi Germany which tried to control fertility.

Practically every developed nation has practiced eugenics at some point, mostly on class grounds rather than racial ones. Sweden, Russia, India, the USA (just off the top of my head) can all line up with proud records of actual systematic plans to restrict fertility of what they saw as an undesirable class, but other countries have done so more subtly.

Nice that we're still talking in terms of how to eliminate these people and their children, rather than changing society so that these people have a stake in it.

Yes FioFio of course, but the key word is working ! Working is good for nearly everybody, even people with disabilities/illness.IMO the biggest abuse of the benefit system is within the disabilty/sickness benefits...don't even get me started on DLA. If you have a bad back/depression/asthma you CAN still do many jobs,( why do people always think if they can't drive a forklift truck then that's it...), and very likely your back/depression/asthma will improve...

True but I am much happier we let people keep their babies than say in the 1950s and 60s when so many were forced to give them up for adoption so I'm not against the current system although an element of work fare would make people appreciate what they're being given - say a few hours a week picking litter and then you get the benefit cheque might make you appreciate the work of others which enables you to pick it up, including the work of a lot of very hard working full time working parents who can barely manage and still hand back so much in tax.

I'm not against trying to help and improve the poor too. The grammar school route so many used has been removed. May be making them stay at school until 18 might help, the Government's current plan.

But most people do think that in terms of encouragement to have more children that is probably better directed at those who can support them and have a desire to see them in school, not being trained up in the skills of petty theft and benefit cheating at their mother's knee.

Yes, working is often the key way out of poverty for all kinds of reasons not just money.

no, i beg to differ.

Education is the way out of poverty. Education is the key to choice.

how dare you assume the whole of the underclass are benefit cheating thieves.

I was thinking of both FioFio.......I know all about them, appreciate DLA not means tested and far fewer,( thank God..), being awarded for life but still IMO far too many people on it ....it just encourages people to see themseelves as not being able to do things, 'focus on your worse day' is a phrase I've heard social workers use with my patients ! I want to scream out loud....no,focus on what you can do, want to do in the future etc...BTW whatever happened to DWA ? Now there was the way forward.

What is DWA?

It's extremely difficult to get DLA. FGS, I've got a pal whose daughter has friggin' PRADER-WILLI syndrome and she's gone through HELL getting DLA for her daughter.

And you think it's an easy ride for these people?

This family's life is a nightmare!

The amount of DLA they get doesn't even cover the bills for her SALT, much less the modifications they'll need done to their kitchen and the other disabilities this girl has.

YOu are very lucky, mozhe, that you don't have a child with SN.

DWA=Disability Working Allowance...now defunct I think/ Too little ' take up '. I always thought that strange...
I wasn't referring to children at all because I have no experience of DLA and kids. My work was always with adults, many were ' stuck ' on DLA,( which incidentally triggers various ' top ups' to means tested benefits, so my social work colleagues tell me...that is wht they were always so keen to get DLA for patients ), when work would have considerably improved their situation..and that of their family.

I think you're getting DLA confused with Incapacity Benefit.

'Underclass'........what a horrible term that is.

is there really such a term as underclass in this country????

FGS.

None of my patients on DLA worked...it seemed to trigger an increase in their means tested benefits that gave them a very decent income thank you, especially when you considered housing benefit and council tax benefit....it didn't make sense for them to go to work,( well financially anyway ). They would get in a real panic whenever DLA reviews came up and suspiciously all the improvement in their condition would immediately evaporate.Social Workers/Welfare Rights workers would then make it their personal mission to prove to me how totally incapable of anything they were....work wasn't even on the agenda ! I refused to have anything to do with it in the end because I found the S.Ws etc.,just didn't want to hear my advice/ opinion.