We're all good enough mums - Today's Times 2

[Imafairy]

I thought this was quite good.

I do too!

Interesting, possibly a thread on its own. After 22 years as a mother I would never say I of the 6 bn people on the planet would always know what is best for my children. I am often wrong and it's good most children have at least 2 parents around so the father can say - hold on there God like mother you're actually terribly wrong about that. I wonder if stay at home mothers think they are right about their children more than those of us who have shared children's care with the other parent more or a granny or someone else?

Some mothers think it's right to spank their children, burn them, leave them home alone so of course it's ludicrous to say mother knows best. It's a very dangerous thing to say and in little things surely all of us every day make a mistake of one kind or another in regard to our children and don't on that occasion know best.

Agree - maybe start a separate thread for that one Xenia.

(Still worried that I agreed with you on a point though, Xenia )

Though glad to see a week away hasn't dampened your appetite for a ruck...''I was being deliberately ambiguous on that point for the fun of it. ''

If you are a SAHM then nobody else knows your child better than you. I may not be right about everything but I feel that I am right about most things where she is concerned. If you share your childcare responsibilties then then you could probably say you aren't the only authority on your child.

I think the problem is that we are used to judging people on their earning power, the difficulty of their job (e.g. only some people can become brilliant mathematicians), and their training/experience (e.g. it takes many years of training to become a surgeon), or if somebody can do something measurably better than somebody else (e.g. being the fastest runner). If anybody can be a parent, and it requires no training and you can't earn any money doing it and you can't really aspire to be the 'best' parent, how can it be a valuable role? I think this means that both people who care for their own children and childcare professionals (nannies, nursery workers) are undervalued.

I agree that those who love and spend most time with people understand them best but I don't agree that even SAHMs never get it wrong. Some parents think their children are brilliant when they aren't. Others cannot see the child is violent and nasty. They have those rose tinted spectacles on that need wrenching from their face and some other adult needs to shout in their ear - no dearie you might spend 24/.7 with young Johnny but you're doing it wrong and he's an awful child and he'd do a lot better if you were away from him in an office for 9 hours a day actually. In other words mothers don't always know best it's just they're good at conning themselves they do.

I found it interesting learning over those 22 years to tolerate the different care a child gets from a father, from a sibling, from a nanny and of course from a teacher and thinking well I might not think that's the best way to do it but perhaps I'm wrong. And often I am wrong. A lot of parents argue between themselves about these things by the way - it's not just a working parent issue at all. It's I'm mother God and I am 100% right and get thee hence mere man you can never be as good as I am.

Am I being really naive or something? I don't seem to be in any competition. I think I'm rather envious of women who can hold down a job, have a cleaning lady and someone who does the shopping and ironing. Otherwise, don't we just get on with it? There definitely seems to be some conspiracy about motherhood that it's all fun and games. It has its moments, but it's pretty bloody tough too. Slummy Mummy can go back to bed.

I like competitive crapness.

Incidentally all the parents at my daughter's school seem to be about as hopeless as me. It's terribly reassuring.

I mean, I find competitive crapness terribly reassuring. I can make a joke of my own insecurities.

The secret of happiness is supposed to be always to spend time with people who are even worse than you are at things etc so that's obviously the way to go...

It's dead easy working full time like me and having someone who cleans, washes, irons, helps with children etc. It's so hard to be a stay at home parent that I think I'd pay to avoid it. For me it would be a toss up whether I'd prefer the early morning cleaning shift at Heathrow to being at home 24/7 with a crying baby. I don't think I could stand it. I really don't. I don't understand how other mothers love it and choose to do it

Xenia - No-one has said that SAHM's never get it wrong. We are human. However I would argue that we know our own children and what is best for them more than others as we are with them the most. This is possibly the same reasons that you felt that your partner/sibling/nanny had better ideas for your children i.e. because they spent time with them.
And those rose tinted spectacles you talk of are IME more likely to belong to the working Mums I know than the SAHM's who get the children warts and all.
(Please don't jump on me working mothers, I hate making generalisations like this, but I am trying to make a point).
I always find fellow parents share their 'inadequacies' when I am honest and tell them of mine (MI's theory of competitive crapness ). And what a relief it is that actually we all have similar parenting challenges. You only have to check the archives on here to see that.

Gosh, I am glad I don't think that is the secret of happiness.
I admire your honesty but I am equally shocked that you chose to have five children if you don't actually like their company that much.

I like their company as much as your husbands like their children and don't tell me they don't love them or any sexist rubbish. You can love children and work. Women always have. I have spent hours with the children over the last 22 years and it's great but so is work and I find it very hard to be with them 24 hours a day as do many parents.

Of course you can love children and work. Crikey we would all be trouble if that weren't the case.
I know my dh would rather be spending time with his children though and doesn't choose to work so he doesn't have to care for them.
A fair number of working mothers do feel guilty about the whole thing. That is a fact. I don't believe they should at all, but women (and some men) do feel this way.
It is an interesting POV to state that you would rather work and pay someone to do your childcare than do it yourself.
I don't find I have enough time for my two and that is without working. This is just how I feel. I admire mothers of more than two and wish I felt I had it in me. I am curious of your choices to have five though when you admit to not enjoying caring for them.

But I'm not a childhater. A lot of women don't want children, can't stand the things, keep away from them and never want any. Some get sterilised. When I was 14 and onwards I really wanted babies. I love them. I just don't want to be with them all day. Many parents don't. It's not just me but perhaps they don't write about it. It's the men and women who choose to work but don't have to. It's an interesting issue. You can love a husband but not want to live and work with him 24/ 7 and you can love a baby and not want to be there 9 - 5. I don't think that diminishes your love or even reduces your maternal instinct. It probably makes having 5 children easier and bearable indeed because you have the lovely nice bits of them and some of the more boring bits you don't have to deal with. Mothers with children at school can bear that the 5 year old is away from them from 9 - 3. I don't think ti's that difference for mothers whose children are under 5. Although of course I remember parting from very small babies but even there you and they adjust fine to tha and you realise for you and them it was the right thing to do. More women with under 5s in the Uk work than don't, As most of us could be on state benefits therefore we, men and women basically all work because of choice or because we're so greedy we want the money rather than being a family on benefits.

All that's very different from saying that someone else knows better what's good for my child than me.

In some instances, of course they do. I'm willing to take advice from teachers, doctors etc., who have been trained in a way I haven't and know better than me. But I think you're just putting forward a daft argument for the sake of it tbh Xenia. In the overall scheme of things, with the obvious exceptions of abusive or nutty parents, most parents are the best judges of what's best for their kids and their families most of the time. Any other point of view is very dangerous, because if parents don't know best, then the only implication in an organised society, is that the state knows best. That way lies real abuse.

Many parents don't know best. Their children don't go to bed on time and eat junk food. The children never read books to them and teach them stealing is wrong and encourage them not to go to school. Of course parents often don't know best. I would say it's dangerous to say parents do know best. But I would also tolerate parental differences in a free society which are not too weird - so a right to tell children they go to Heaven or that dinosaurs never existed or that adulterers go to Hell or that they should worship the sun naked at mid night or whatever.

We wouldn't of couse respect their rights to whip their children or other things which breach the law. A line is drawn at a particular point in particular societies as to what is illegal and what isn't. The ultimate in parents not knowing best I suppose is the various communist states that have taken children from parents to be brought up communally and encouraged them to denounce their parents.

It's interesting but living in france,( even for this relatively short time...), I have noticed that the ' competitiveness ' thing is rather frowned upon, with french mums being very modest about their children..." if only Jean-Claude was as good as your little Pierre at maths..." etc. Also was slightly dreading announcing no.6 on the way,( !! ),as was preparing myself for lots of negative comments re; working/big families and so on...Not a bit of it ! French mums seem to think it entirely sensible that someone with,( soon to be ), 6 children would work.One mum said it would be a " terrible waste ' if someone who was a doctor gave up work. And I ddon't think there is much of an idea of parenthood being a job either...frankly something i've always found ludicrous !

Everything I hear about France confirms the fact that it sounds like a much more civilised country than here. For an ordinary person, it sounds like utopia - must have been the revolution?

LOL I find it so amusing that you think the ultimate states where control was taken away from parents were various communist ones.

Let's not mention right wing ones Xenia. The words Hitler Youth will not pass my lips...

But the nazis aren't ultimate of course. Various communists are.

Don't know about France being Utopia ! Though do think their attitude is refreshingly different, they include children in the adult world so much more, rather than creating special stuff just for kids...like those ghastly ' soft play ' centres we have in England, and all those ' special ' menus at restaurants/cafes ....Children should fit into adult world much more, that way they learn about it and also patience, waiting their turn, being a little bit bored sometimes and,( my favourite this one ), being quite and listening to adults occasionally ! I say this with glee as 6 year old is busy in my office,( sore throat...nanny had to take twins to routine paediatric appointment, he preferred to come here for an hour or so ), doiing ' filing ' and shredding !

Caligula I did say on this or another thread today communist china and Nazi Germany. Extremists who don't let individuals be individuals like to do these kinds of things.
I think it's a bit like the globe - once you get right round at either end very right or very left wing you meet in the middle and are each as bad as the other.

Mozhe - Why is it ludicrous to consider parenting a 'job'? I am intrigued. I think it is great that you are able to continue to work with five, soon to be six children, as this is your choice and one you are happy with. For me it is not a situation I could maintain as I know I would not be happy.

Xenia - I maintain the majority of parents DO know what is best for their children. Your arguements are IMO very generalised and extremist and a little bit silly.

I don't agree. Many parents make a bit of a mess of it. Think their children should be fed bad foods. Don't make sure they even get to school on time and don't make them feel loved. Those parents might think they know best but they're wrong which is why two parents aer best and having other adults around and about is helpful too to say - hey that's unreasonable. Another reason why Childline has been so helpful too to many children because parents sadly often don't know best.