Do schools have a right to set their own standards with regards to uniforms?

[speedymama]

I believe that they do and when parents choose a school, they do so knowing what the rules are. That's why I do not agree with this family trying to force the school to change its rules in order that they can get their own way.

I hope the school does not back down and I believe that any costs incurred should be paid by the family as they are the ones making the fuss.

ok

I just feel like your are reaching a bit. As I pointed out lots of schools do have long skirts and i'm sure they have chemistry to.

I suppose if people look hard enough they could find a reason not to wear anything.

Ah, now not wearing anything would be a serious H and S issue. Acid is much better falling on cloth than on skin!

None of the schools round with us have long skirs. the school uniform will adapt to a shalwar kamise. We also adapt to head scarfs. I simply don't know how you can think that a long skirt doesn't increase the risk of tripping. This isn't poletics or religion it is practical.

Next you will be telling me that a burka doesn't restrict vision.

What I meant was that I'm sure there are some situations where students could argue that short skirts, or blazers, trousers, or horrible clumpy shoes are all health hazzards if not in chemistry then somewhere else.

I know that a veil is not an ideal piece of clothing but I just don't think its a big enough H&S issue to ban it.

We make all sorts of extra demands on them in a lab, because it is a lab.

We do not allow eating or drinking (unless diabetic, risk /benefit anaylsis)

We do not allow them to wear or carry coats.....last person I saw do this burned a hole in a coat worth £150

We demand that they tie back long hair....male or female.

We also insist that they tie back veils for the same reason.

No-one sits while we do chemistry practical, a beaker of acid on the floor is safer than one in the lap (again, if someone were in a wheelchair/ had movement issues I would adapt policy)

No-one runs/ pushes or shoves anyone.

You might not think that things are H and S issues. But it is my job to look at this sort of stuff. My lab, my job, my rules.

Do you work in a lab, out of interest?

oh, and goggles. They have to wear those as well.

MB, I'm a chemist and have worked in labs both at university and in industry for many years. I was the H&S coordinator for my department also. I concur with everything you have said.

H&S is indeed a major issue now what with corporate responsibility and the possibility of corporate manslaughter charges being brought against managers if it is deemed that they have not taken sufficient precautions to prevent accidents which lead to death or injuries. In the labs where I work there is no way you would be allowed to work without the correct attire and the necessary precautions. I can also guarantee that the same parents who want to encase their daughters in these restrictive, impractical garments will be first to sue should anything untoward happen.

Commonsense must prevail.

Agree with MB re safety. There are so many hazards with H&S when teaching a practcal subject. Some of them you are not aware of until you start teaching. It really is scary having to second guess all the time, anything on the floor is a hazard, including bags, books, even feet in an overcrowded classroom.

And here are some of the hazards you nver take into account.

Boy cutting girls bra straps with scissors.
Afro caribbean girl trying to IRON her hair straight, with iron directly onto her hair.
They are such little ***sods if you don't watch them ALL the time! (sorry for hijack there btw!)

paulaplumpbottom (love your name btw)
"So you think Religious freedoms shouldn't be given to children?"
Raises some interesting questions. Are children ever given religious freedom? The sainted Richard Dwarkins makes the point that we would not refer to "communist children" or "arsenal supporter children" So why is it that it is acceptable to refer to "christian children" or "muslim children"? The fact is that the religion practised by children is a function of their parents. They have no choice. Can you imagine a baby at the font deciding that it's religious freedoms are being restricted?

3andnomore I can see your point about the militaristic aspect about uniforms, but I am in firm favour of them for a number of reasons. On a personal level, I grew up poor in a middle class area. Wearing a uniform to school menat that nobody really knew our circumstances. Children can be incredibly cruel about trivial things like appearance and by removing the pointers to my difference I was spared an awful lot of grief and bullying.

Secondly as a teacher they have a subtle affect on behaviour. If you've ever read Edward DeBono's 6 hat theory you'll have some idea about what I mean. When students put on a uniform in the morning, it's part of the mental preparation that says "Now I am a student". This places them in the mindset of a student and ready to learn. In order to teach effectivly there must be some conformity in the classroom, the other option is anarchy. By uniforming children we are removing external distractions, setting their minds into an appropriate mindset and imposing external conformity which we hope will lead to some internal conformity.

We all do it. "I put on my suit and I'm ready for work, I put on my uniform and I'm ready to learn."

I once had a student who had a lovely yellow shirt with a distinctive green spiky leaf pattern. Every time he wore it all hell would break loose as your average adolescent does not have the self control to avoid stupid jokes about drugs, even if the are the same ones that get told every time. In the end we had to ask him to stop wearing it to college. Believe me, the cult of the individual is hellish for teachers.

slug, I have to say, before I begin, that I am a BIG fan of school uniforms. I think they generally look very smart (unless you're unlucky to attend a brown & orange coloured school). I always loved wearing a uniform. Pracxtically do still now, except it's jeans and a t-shirt. Anyway, I do agree with you to a certain extent, but it did make me laugh, your line "In order to teach effectivly there must be some conformity in the classroom, the other option is anarchy.". We don't live in UK and here and in most European schools, there is no uniform. Luckily, the anarchy hasn't taken hold yet. Although when ds2 starts in August I think the situation is likely to change.

but I agree. This is not about the child's religious freedom, but about the parental wishes.

i think she should be allowed to wear it, but have to remove it when it could be a hazard. same as christian children would have to remove crucifixes for pe.

slug, totaly agree with you.

Given the chance adolecent students will dress to attract the opposite sex (they try this within the uniform code as it is!)

Add to that adolecent moods, hormones and potential sillyness and it isn't a cocktail for a calm environment , that is condusive to hard work!

I never wore a uniform, although this was unusual in Ireland. I personally, dislike them. I moved house in order to be in the catchment area of a (UK) state seconary school for DD. Within 6 weeks of starting, we were notified that it was going to be put to student vote to decide if a uniform would be brought in. Sounds utterly hidous, purple sweatshirt with toning check skirt/ kilt. I am REALLY annoyed, but realise that this issue is for the governors to decide and there is eff all I can do about it - other than put her name down for another school, with a very similar ethos and no plans to introduce a uniform. This I have done (having also moved house again anyway), but am not hopeful that I will get a place on casual transfer and also unconvinced that DD will have any interest in moving schools by then.

I certainly don't plan to take the school to court to say that my or DDs human rights have been infringed by the forcing of a uniform policy upon us, (although I am so annoyed, that I do almost feel that way.)

What I have to accept is that should the outcome of the student vote not be in my favour; I will have to accept this as the majority wish, just as I have to accept various other laws and rules, which have been decided by majority vote - be they in parliament, in a school or on a board of directors.

If this is indeed the parent's wishes re: the veil; I think it's a shameless stunt to go to the press about it.

Slug, don't think it was me with the military comparison, think that might have been greensleeves...!
Anyway, I suppose because I never experienced school Uniform as a child, I can't really comment , that it would change something in your mindset....! Must say, school was always school for me and a place for learning and getting out of my Pyjamas into my clothes has always be my preparation for whatever comes my way in the day...!
Also, we weren't well off and I usually wore the clothes my 4 years older sister outgrew, so, probably wasn't always the most fashionable, but that was no issue, as well, you find your cliques anyway, and there is more to you than what you wear...I know pearpressure is great, but really, even in the school uniform you tend to know who is who or what....it's more about your posture , the way you present yourself, etc...for that reason you could be wearing the poshes clothes around, but if you don't present them right, they ain't make you look that great....!
Also, looking around at ds's school and the state of the Kids, it's easy to tell which family circumstances (financial, etc...) they come from...!
But, of course, just my opinion...I jsut can't see anything positive about Uniforms...they are crap to Iron to boot...sigh...

Yep, that would be me!

havent read the entire thread. but as a muslim, here's my pov

nowhere in islamic law does it say it is mandatory to cover the face
the wearing of headscarves is not mandatory until the onset of menarche. whether thta is at 8, or 18.

does this man even know if the child has started her periods?
i think he is just looking for a reason not to send his daughter to school.

in saudi arabia, no school or college allows the wearing of veils inside the school. the only exceptions are practising doctors in hospitals.

this man should be made to pay the costs of this bigotry of his.

and not tht anyone will be at all bothered by this point, but the wearing of the niqab should be the girls choice, not her fathers.

I'm very bothered by that part of it stitch. I think it's rather different to be forced to cover your face by your parents, than be forced to say, cover your midriff, or wear a coat when it's cold.

I thought it was effing awful when I saw Michael Jackson's kids walking around wearing masks. I don't see the difference between that and being told you HAVE to wear a veil over your face, when like you say, it's not actually madatory under Islamic law.

I don't believe that it's infringing on anyone's rights to ask them not to wear a mask/ veil to school, or to remove a mask or veil at airport security for that matter. I'd like to see how far I'd get wearing a Hallowe'en mask through passport control. Perhaps I should try it - do my own publicity stunt!

Stitch, glad to hear someones opinion about it, that knows about Muslim/religion/culture!
And, yeah, it is, imo very important whose choice it is to wear the veil.
But, I also think that if a Uniform is in place one has to go by that, espeically if it already accomadates the cultrure anyway!
I would love to know the hidden, or not so hidden agenda, of this...i.e. why they really feel the need to "enforce" this, etc...

I agree with you Stich, it should be the girl's choice. It should also be up to institutions to set their own rules and it is up to them to decide how far they are willing to go to accommodate the principles of a minority.

I too, like you, hope the father is landed for the bill of this unnecessary court case.

3andnomore, I personally think a lot of this is being driven by political dogma (discussions with Muslims friends backs this up).

We hade a girl who decided (against her families wishes) to wear a head scarf. There was no fuss and palarva. She wore it in school colours and tied it back when needed for safty. In the sixth form she wored scarves that fitted whatever she was wearing. No fuss. Her choice and a sensible and mutual compromise.

speedy, that is sort of what I was wondering/thinking....!

in islam the headscarf is mandatory, the niqab isnt. so anyone making a fuss over something like this is being all sorts of negative things which i wont say, as i will be shot down in flames for being rude etc.
this man should be made to pay the bill for the court case, and for defaming all muslims

mb, my aunt wears niqaab. like your stufent,she has never let it be a problem for anyone. she will happily remove it to scoff down an ice cream cone, or to eat a burger. at weddings etc she either has matching scarfs, niqaabs, or just doesnt wear the niqaab part of it. two of her daughters wer the niqab, the third doesnt. their choice.

I feel very strongly that my kids shouldn't be forced to wear uniform. I would rather they were allowed to express themselved through their own choices.

However, I know the school rules so I will respect them and send my kids to school in uniform despite my strongly held beliefs.

Why is that any different? Why are my beliefs discounted and given no weight whatsoever?

The one good thing about school uniforms is that they are supposed to be levellers so that whatever class or culture you come from, inside the school gates you are treated the same.

My sister is currently living and working in the Maldives, which is a Muslim country, helping with the post Tsunami re-building effort there. She covers up even in baking heat. She has been challenged by a woman for having a beer in her own home. She's doing her utmost to avoid offending and yet back here we're bending rules for fear of upsetting certain groups.

It's backfiring too this is the problem. Far from encouraging tolerance, it's actually causing more racial and cultural tension and playing right into the hands of the BNP et al.

I like the French approach where schools are secular.