Do schools have a right to set their own standards with regards to uniforms?

[speedymama]

I believe that they do and when parents choose a school, they do so knowing what the rules are. That's why I do not agree with this family trying to force the school to change its rules in order that they can get their own way.

I hope the school does not back down and I believe that any costs incurred should be paid by the family as they are the ones making the fuss.

3nomore, The French banned religious symbols from all their state schools, so no headscarves, turbans, Jewish skull caps, large crucifixes etc. Quite right to, imho.

Does the girl want to wear a veil, or do her parents want her to?

Yes the school have moved the goalposts - but that surely is the perogative (within reason) of the school?

When i was at infants school there was no compulsary uniform - now it seems pretty much that it is compulsary to wear uniform in infants schools - at some point the goalposts changed to this effect.

speedymama, I think that is a good idea of the french...
Must say, in Germany no one would have a problem like this anyway, seeing that there are no Uniforms and everyone can come as they want too...

Why be so intolerant? Maybe the reason we all get offended so easily is that we have been sheilded as children from other people's religions and cultures. Maybe we could all understand eachother better if we were exposed to differences as children.

A 38yo single, party loving, professional Muslim female friend of mine sent me this link when Jack Straw made his comments last year. Nobody tells her how dress!

how to dress

Maybe all Muslim women don't feel the same as your friend.

Hmmm. I don't want my children to wear uniform at all, because I find the whole concept of uniform culturally offensive and abhorrent, especially on children. It has all sorts of military and conformist connotations which have no place in my children's upbringing as far as I am concerned and will in no way benefit their education.

Do I have the right to send my children into a uniformed school dressed in their own clothes, if this girl is permitted to wear her niqab? Or is there somebody who decides whose cultural beliefs/principles are valid and whose are not?

Very sticky area.

I don't think anyone is being intolerant, apart from the family at the centre of this row. No one is saying she shouldn't be allowed to wear the veil. But to demand a 12 year old girl in school to cover her face is rediculous. And to threaten court action. Well, tbh it makes me feel extremely uncomfortable. And I agree with the French stance. No ifs buts or costly law suits in every school up and down the country.

So you think Religious freedoms shouldn't be given to children?

My problem with all this is that zealots from any religion believe that they have a God given right to do as they wish, regardless of the rules, and too many expect everyone else to capitulate to accommodate them.

Religious intolerance is not just about preventing someone from practising their religion as they see fit, it is also about religious people recognising that institutions have their own rules and thus, they should endeavour to adapt or compromise to accommodate those rules. Tolerance works both ways.

One lesson in life that everyone should learn is that you do not always get your own way and you have to learn to compromise.

I don't see why religious sensibilities should be given precedence over other firmly held cultural or ideological beliefs (as no-one has yet answered my earlier question about school uniform).

but speedy - which rules were their first - religious ones or school ones??? (not including bizarre 'relgions' like Scientology LOL).

"over other firmly held cultural or ideological beliefs" - greensleeves - just over 100yrs ago a lady showing her ANKLES was frowned upon - nevermind any other body part (excluding head and hands).

What on earth does it matter which were there first? How childish!

We'd better bring back trial by torture then, instead of jury trials, and public flogging instead of community service. They were there first, after all.

fannyannie, my point is that some of us have cultural and ideological objections to the whole custom of uniforming children for school. So why are these objections less valid than religious ones? If this girl is eventually allowed to dress according to her/her parents' wishes, does that mean I should be allowed to send my children to a uniformed school in their own clothes?

It does not matter which rules were there first. School governing bodies can make their own rules about school uniform and adapt them to accommodate the community they serve. In this case the school has done that but it is still not good enough for the family concerned. It's all or nothing.

As for Greeny's point, I agree, why should religious sensibilities be given precedence over other firmly held cultural or ideological beliefs. Would we allow a teacher who believed in naturism and wanted to wear their birthday suit to teach our children?

Iwas just thinking on the way to collect dd from school about the comment is it the children who want to wear the niqab or the parents... My secondary schol had a very high percentage of Indian/Adsian children who used to have to wear headscarves/trousers under their dress etc and I'd say close to 70% of those girls used to ask us to sneak a school skirt in for them so they could be 'normal' (their words not mine) whilst they were at school and then change before they went home again.

Greensleeves yes, I agree with you, if these parents win the right to be allowed to send their child to school in clothing that upholds their beliefs, then by the same standards you should then be allowed to send your child to school in whatever you like - what's the difference?

Speedymama your post;

'My problem with all this is that zealots from any religion believe that they have a God given right to do as they wish, regardless of the rules, and too many expect everyone else to capitulate to accommodate them.

Religious intolerance is not just about preventing someone from practising their religion as they see fit, it is also about religious people recognising that institutions have their own rules and thus, they should endeavour to adapt or compromise to accommodate those rules. Tolerance works both ways.

One lesson in life that everyone should learn is that you do not always get your own way and you have to learn to compromise.'

sums up exactly how I feel about it but could think how to word it!! I also think that these zealots are now given free rein to push the boundaries as far as they can because polital correctness has gone so OTT that if their demands are not bowed down to then we are the 'racist' ones, which isn't fair.

but what "firmly" held cultural belief is being opposed here??? The UK hardly has a long standing 'cultural' tendency to wear anything in particular - do they???

I remember a girl in my class at Middle School used to wear the Niqab - there was a strict uniform code - but it was never an issue for her to wear it. It wasn't offending anyone, she had plenty of friends and it wasn't putting anyone in any danger.

Read the link Fanny that I added in my 13.24 post. This issue is much bigger and deeper than you give it credance.

For me, it is about the identity of women being subjugated in 21st century on the misguided belief of religious obedience and it is about how far society should be expected to capitulate to accommodate all religious beliefs. Does anyone else notice that men are never asked to cover their faces? It's always women

My parents came from Jamaica in the 1960s and my DM even now says, when in Rome......It does not mean that you give up your cultural identity, it means that you adapt.

The problem with Islam is that religion and cultural traditions get mixed up and the zealots exploit this to promulgate their ultra conservative, austere, 6th century version on 21st century society.

As far I am concern, anyone should be allowed to practise their religion as they see fit but they should respect the rules laid out by institutions that are used by a majority society that does not follow or believe in their beliefs.

This is appalling. This child is being forced by her bastard father to nullify herself as a person. I think the school should put the child's interests first, not kowtow to his revolting misogyny. Would the school permit a racist father to ensure his white child did not mix with black pupils? Makes me feel sick.

"on the misguided belief of religious obedience"

I already read the link.....

Misguided in whose eyes - yours I presume.

Of course I agree with "when in Rome" etc etc - but if we're talking about the UK as "Rome" - then what IS culturally "normal"??????

And as for the it "does not comply with its uniform code because it hampers communication." in the first link - utter rubbish - are you HONESTLY telling me that you can't communicate with someone wearing a Niqab??????