Do schools have a right to set their own standards with regards to uniforms?

[speedymama]

I believe that they do and when parents choose a school, they do so knowing what the rules are. That's why I do not agree with this family trying to force the school to change its rules in order that they can get their own way.

I hope the school does not back down and I believe that any costs incurred should be paid by the family as they are the ones making the fuss.

Communication is not just about projecting one's voice.

I know - but I'm sorry I think it's a VERY weak excuse it IS possible to communicate with someone where you can only see their eyes and hear their voice - oh and not to mention see body posture and hand gestures......

If the Niqab = poor communication

does that also therefore mean that

Niqab wearer = no friends/social interaction/life???

I'm sure they have a life and friends, that's not the issue. The school has rules and they should stick to them like everyone else is expected to - that is the issue.

Another thought, imagine the Mona Lisa wearing a Niqab. Just would not be the same, would it? It is not only her eyes that communicate to us, her smile reaches out to us also.

Must go now!

Well, my cultural belief, being german, is that School Uniforms are absolute rubbish and nonsense, and the bane of my life and completely unecessary and I just hate the whole idea of the "uniformity" to undermine a childs personality, however, I am now in england and send my children (o.k. only my es so far, lol, lil ones are to young yet) to a british school and the school has a schooluniform, so, of course my child is wearing it, even though I do NOT belief in them at all...Britains cultural belief is that school uniforms are a valuable asset, as it is MY decision to live in this country, I feel I have to conform to this, and that is fine by me, after all it's my choice to be here.
Now, I can understand that the whole religious issue goes deeper then that, but the religion does not ask for that Niqab anyway, and if I remember correctly actually many women of that culture have lost their lifes because they were brave enough to voice their objection against wearing such garment....so, obviously it's not the europeans that take issue wiht it anyway...!

I think the problem here is that you are projecting your feelings tword Islam onto the situation. It doesn't matter if you think it oppresses women or not. What matters here is that this girl and her parents believe that she should wear a veil for religious reasons.

You keep mentioning that its not the cultural norm here to wear a veil. Is it the culture then to be intolerant?

"but what "firmly" held cultural belief is being opposed here??? The UK hardly has a long standing 'cultural' tendency to wear anything in particular - do they???"

I was referring to my own very firmly held cultural and ideological conviction, namely that uniforms are dehumanizing, militaristic and unnecessary to the educational process.

Are aggregate beliefs now more important than individual ones? Who is imposing this bizarre hierarchical system of validation? Which is more important, the religious beliefs of one family, the customary tendency of one nation, or the socio-political principles of one individual?

I do agree that for the school/government to uphold the right of a Muslim father to make his daughter wear what is in effect a bag over her head to school every day is farcical.

paulaplumpbottom, the practice of forcing pupils to dress in identical uniforms is by its nature intolerant of the non-conformist. If an exception is made for one set of opposing beliefs, religious or otherwise, then the rule cannot then be imposed on any other dissenters. So no uniforms.

Which is fine by me.... but for an axception to be made in the case of this girl because her parents' objections are religious objections is unjust and illogical.

how can YOUR own idea be a cultural thing???

And for the previous poster - since when was it a 'cultural' thing for schools in the UK to wear uniform - there are many that don't......

I do agree with you about the uniforms Greensleeves. Growing up in the States I never had to wear a uniform and I cringe every time I put my Beautiful DD into a yucky sweatshirt for pre-school. If there has to be uniforms can't they be attractive?

Well, we have moved around a fair bit and so far everywhere were school Uniforms...I think it's difficult to find a school over here that doesn't have Uniform!

The Mona Lisa can't talk. There is no reasons these kids can't communicate. I could only see a prblem if there was a deaf child in the school. Although I suppose that wouldn't be allowed as I'm sure hearing aids wouldn't be in the dress code.

you're just being silly now, aren't you?

Yes of course I was exaggerating, but its no more ludicrous than saying no to this veil.

There are serious H and S issues regarding full face veils in labs and work shops, because of the restriction on vision and fire risks.

The school I work in allows head scarfs, but they have to be in school colours, navy or grey or black, and must be tied back for PE, Tech lessons and science. This has never been seen as a problem be either families or the school

Oh, and what is the teacher is deaf and lip reads? this is actually the case of one teacher where I work

MartinBishop, that sounds like a really reasonable approach.

Most school sdo this PPB, and most ofetn in colaboration with the local Imams. the issues recently have been over full veiling and wearing floor lenth robes rather than other muslim clothing.

The veil is oppressive, sexist and medieval nonsense designed to prevent women's full participation in life in every sense. If a grown woman stupidly chooses to participate that in that oppression, well, that's her idiotic choice. But the school should be defending this CHILD in the face of her family's (father's?)attempt to demean and oppress her. And I'm really, really glad and proud that it is.

Could there not be a full length skirt in the uniform?

Not in my lab. Imagine 28 children in a classroom. Imagine stools. Imagine children milling round. Imagine bunsen burners and acid and glass.

Now imagine a child treading on a floor lenth skirt. Imagine the possibility for accidents. Imagine the litigation

And people just don';t 'trap' trousers underfoot in the same way when going from sitting to standing.

The local schools here don't seem to have a problem with it.

Well, I would.

All religions start off with someone's idea. All religions are man-made. At what point does that idea devolve into something which supercedes all other considerations? Once it has 1000 followers, 1 million? Once it has existed for x number of years?

When those who follow a religion cannot agree between themselves what constitutes an acceptable mode of dress, they can hardly claim religious imperative, can they?

I would imagine stools more of a problem than long skirts

They have to sit on something. they put the stools under the benches while they work. Long skirts are a trip and fall hazzard. I think you aer just being a little OTT now. What do you sugest they sit on?

they would be of a goth, they would be for a muslim. They simply just are. It has nothing to do with religion and everything to do with limiting children setting themselves/others on fire or drenching them in acid.

While children are in my lab I am in loco parentis. The buck stops with me. I make the evaluation, since it is my professional neck on the line. And after 20 odd years working in labs in school, universities and industry I think I have a damn good eye for what is safe and what is not.