so because we're the catholic church, we should be allowed to discriminate

[wannaBeWhateverIWannaBe]

or we'll close our

adoption agencies

But the catholic church doesn't hate and despise people for being gay.

It is very clear on this: "hate the sin, love the sinner".

Ah, I see it is. lol at enid.

What, like 'hate the blackness, love the black person'? Nope. That definitely doesn't wash for me. Being gay is integral to that person. It is saying 'you are not allowed to love anyone or be in a relationship even though it is totally harmless to everyone else'. If anyone worships a god they believe thinks that, then they worship a bigot. IMO worshipping a bigot makes that person a bigot.

And loads of church leaders opposed this equal rights legislation, including CofE bishops in the house of lords.

LadyMuck this thread gives a context to the whole thing. That should be sufficent really.

But discrimination IS always bad. Bias is always a negative. It may be impossible to completely negate, but we can certainly live our lives with that aim.

I think given the Catholic history in adoption agencies (all those poor girls in the Magdelen Laundries for example) I'm not sure they are a good thing at all, frankly. Especially if they deliberately restrict the homes children can go to.

But they don't believe that being gay is integral to a person's humanity. They believe it is a free lifestyle choice.

You may not agree with them on the integral versus choice issue, but if you believe it to be a free choice, then it's not necessarily bigotry to disapprove of a choice (though it may be in certain contexts). I agree it's bigotry to accept that a god created people a certain way merely in order to make them feel bad about themselves though.

I agree I can't quite see why the catholic church is involved in adoptions at all. I don't think any religious body should be tbh.

But ask any gay person and they will tell you different. The catholic church must believe every gay person is a liar!

What I find baffling is that anyone could think God 'wants' them to stop a child being placed in a loving family. Doing God's work? Get real.

And it isn't just the Catholic church that is prejudiced against gay people. The Church of England is busy pandering to the homophobes in the African churches atm

Aloha, that is one of the reasons I've left the Anglican church. For a while I convinced myself that so long as my corner of it wasn't prejudiced it was okay, but it wasn't and to stay would have been hypocritical. Tbh I think the RC church is following the Anglican lead on this.

Or the Anglicans are following the catholic lead. Or they are both following the muslim lead. In fact, can anyone name me a religion that isn't prejudiced against gay people?

Erm, Christians aren't supposed to be prejuduced, they're supposed to abstein yes.... but Christians are supposed to 'let he who is without sin throw the first stone', 'love thy neighbour', 'judge not lest ye be judged'.

A very good friend is gay and Christian. he's currently single so not practising buta s he says, this idea that if you don't practise- he's still gay and always will be . Yet I know nobody who loves God more, in any religious sector.

The problem with organised religions are that they set themselves up as morality police. Thus we have Anglican African bishops (bankrolled by US conservatives) turning their backs on those suffering b/c of HIV and devoting all their time and energy to their anti-gay agenda.

It seems so cruel for anyone to be told, yes, God is Love, but you can't have the same God-created love that I can because I love someone of the opposite sex and you love someone of the same - or if you do you are outside of 'what God wants'.

Just to clarify, the Catholic church does accept that being gay is not merely a lifestyle choice but is part of a person's inherent make-up. However, they teach that sex is to be confined to marriage and therefore treat single gay people no different to single/unmarried heteros.
Not sure how it works but I don't think a catholic adoption agency would countenance an unmarried couple adopting either.

Thing is the Catholics aren't being "bad" people. If you genuinely feel that gays are evil perverts, then it is obviously your duty to keep them away from kids.

If Catholics (or Moslem) want to avoid helping gays, then the state has no legitimate role in making them do so.

If a bunch of people want to serve their God by doing good works then fine. Adoption is the clear corollary of the Catholic position on abortion. Many MNers won't agree with it, but if you're going to ask women not to have abortion, it is right and proper to help deal with the baby.

However "Charity" has a specific meaning in Britain. You get all sorts of tax breaks, and often get money as well.

But if they want help from the state, then they have to give up discrimination. That means no peppercorn rates for their offices, no VAT exemptions, and donations will get an extra 23% from the taxman.
The Catholic church record for the last 1,000 years shows quite clearly that this stimulus would cause them to change their mind PDQ.

Also, note that there is a shortage of "adoptable" kids. ie very young white healthy ones. Someone who has a source of those is able to exert considerable power of adoptive parents who are very emotionally vulnerable.

TBH I think that's worse than believing it's a lifestyle choice.

If you believe in God, why on earth would he invent people with a sexuality they're not allowed to express? What kind of sadist would he be?

That's really wierd, wierder than those evangelicals who think homosexuality can be therapy-ised away. IMO, of course.

Caligula, that is exactly the point I was trying to make. God made me straight so I can know fulfilling loving relationships but 'he' made you gay so you have to live a life of self-denial?

Why cant the church have an opinion, why cant they believe something, why does everything have to be predjudice just because it doesnt suit OUR beliefs.

Why is it not ok to say anything in this country anymore, it drives me nuts. It is not possible to please everyone all the time about everything be it race, sexual orientation, religion etc.

The catholic church believe to act out homosexuality is a sin and thats that. Its never going to change.

I am a catholic but dont agree with all the churches teachings (i.e. views on homosexuality/abortion/contraception), I make my own decisions about things knowing that I have to live with my conscience and will ultimately have to justify those decisions.

mmmmmmmmmmmmmmfffffffffff!

Oh the church has every right to believe what it likes, but it can't complain when it's perceived as bonkers.

Or cruel, Caligula.

This discussion is being lead by Guardian reading liberals who believe that nothing is sacred. If the Roman Catholic Church is preparecd to take a stand on this issue then I applaud the fact that and their willingness to promote a healthy view of the family.