so because we're the catholic church, we should be allowed to discriminate

[wannaBeWhateverIWannaBe]

or we'll close our

adoption agencies

And Tony Blair. And Gordon Brown. And Tessa Jowell. And John Reid. And Ruth Kelly. And...you get the gist.

Vilified. Honestly. As bad as DC.

I believe that individuals have been responsible for the cover up of rapes and I will lobby for them to stand trial.

However I believe in the fundaments of the catholic faith - in Jesus as the Son of God, in transubstantiation, in the Trinity etc etc. For the most part I accept the guidelines it places.

I do not feel strongly enough about gay adoption to have lobbied about that. I feel that there are enough agencies that would allow it and that Social Services are discriminatory in themselves and therefore the government is hypocritical.

As for child abuse. Yes it is shameful. I personally believe that the church has lived a sheltered life and never actually believed that this would go on in its world. When they realised it did, they panicked, they thought they could deal with it themselves, but they couldn't and they fucked up big time. However they have apologised.

I wouldn't not go to Germany because of the atrocities their government did many moons ago. The government is new now and though they still have their facists, they are doing their best. The Church is the same. It will never be free from paedos, but luckily it seems to be learning its lesson and things are changing.

I accept their apology and I am satisfied that they are changing their ways.

But yet again this has gone off topic when I am trying to keep it on topic.

I don't feel I should have to justify why I belong to this religion any more than you should justify who you choose to bank with or shop with.

What gives you lot the right to pick my personal choices apart?

Aloha, I won't vote labour whilst there are MPs there who supported the war. But I wouldn't attack those who do vote for labour. It's their choice.

If I feel strongly about something I will act to try and put it right. Therefore I marched for peace during the war. I wouldn't tell others what they should do.

Many people supported the war, should I go around calling them murderers?

Actually Rhubarb, I do think there's a case for justifying who I bank and shop with. I don't see why those choices should be off limits.

(Not that I'm going to right now, btw)

But my point is that everyone belongs to some organisation that will have corruption and human rights abuses at its core somewhere down the line. Whether it is Tesco who don't pay farmers fairly and whose clothes factories in Bangladesh employ child workers, or perhaps the company for whom you work, that might invest in Iraqi oil. The government you vote for, whose leaders should really be tried in court for human rights abuses.

I have stated why I am a catholic.

Let's hear others justifying their lifestyle choices then shall we?

I don't think anybody is calling individual people on this thread anything, Rhubarb - certainly not child-abusers (deluded maybe ). Of course I do not hold ordinary Catholics responsible for crimes committed by other people. That would be nonsensical. I do think people who do think homosexuals are not worthy people are bigots though, even if they are bishops of any church, and the CofE is JUST as bad, as I have said many times. The CofE bishops in teh house of lords voted against this equality law, but seem to have got away with it.

I agree ruty that a minority of christians are doing something, but that is a large number given the size of the organisations, but still a minority.
Cut off their money, and they will respond very quickly to your comments.
The churches helped rapists for decades until they got sued big time.

I do not think people should leave any church, a better course of action is to stay and fight. But "stay and fight" does not consist of mute inaction.

I am neutral on the subject of women priests.
The Bible is pretty clear on the role of women (maidservant, wife, prostitute, general skivvy), and leading flocks is not sanctioned at all. But if the churches want to make use of a large workforce, then fair enough.

You are incorrect that I do not have respect for people who stay and fight.
But that respect is predicated on actually doing some fighting, and if any large number of Christians were indeed fighting we would hear a lot more noise.

The hierachies of Catholic church has not cleaned itself out one bit, and has elected one of the most guilty to it's top job. No CoE bishop has been sacked, or even as far as I am aware been brought to account in the various ways available.

DC you are not a very good theologian. You are very wrong on how women are portrated in the Bible.
I have yet to hear any proof from you about widedpread organised rape of children in the Cof E church. I would love to get various bishops sacked for other things though. I agree that many more people in both churches should get their houses in order.

this is sobering

if you scroll down to the bottom to the Ferns report and the upcoming Dublin stuff...you will see that this is not something that is in any way over.

it really doesn't fit well with your interpretation, that this is a matter that has been dealt with by the church Rhubarb.

Agree Ruty, DC has clearly not read his Bible! But then as someone who clearly loathes religions, why should he?

I think we shall all have to agree to disagree on this one. Faith is something very personal and I don't think that belonging to any particular church or religion dictates what kind of person you are. It is a shame that so many individuals have sullied the name of the church. But we are all human and we all fuck up sometimes. Not on such a huge scale admittedly.

Nonetheless I am proud to be catholic and I can only hope to change peoples views of individual catholics. We are not all paedophiliac bigots! And, dare I say, there are many priests and bishops out there who do a difficult job in trying circumstances and are a credit to the church. However I guess these things are not newsworthy.

In any case, the church has lost its case to be exempt from the equality law. In it's wake it has provoked discussion and debate, which can be no bad thing.

Now come on DC, have a hug, you know you want one!

the allegations are so prevalent and ongoing in ireland that they are now seriously considering separating church and state.

I haven't read any stuff about this for a while now actually....it's pretty awful.

and the overidding message is of the prevalence of this, certainly in Ireland.

Oh and up comes sophable brandishing the sex abuse stick again!

Please do not direct your posts at me sweetie. I am not responsible for these things.

Your report is interesting. One-sided and undated, but interesting. Thank you.

Rhubarb, that's exactly my point, on this issue it isn't a case of individuals sullying the institution...but rather of the institution protecting and in many cases actually perpetuating the abuse. it's awful.

no it doesn't mean that the catholic church is evil per se, nor does it mean that there aren't countless other organisations that are not awful too...what it does do is highlight the UTTER hypocrisy of this attempt to 'protect' children from gay parents.

I do think Jesus was actually remarkably forward thinking in his attitude to women, even if some of his friends (eg Paul) were barking mad on the subject. From his friendship with prostitutes to the Martha and Mary story (a great inspiration for women who prefer talking to housework), he certainly did not seem to personally want to see women confined to the home in a subservient position, and he didn't drone on about maidenly modesty etc. The Old Testament is appalling about everything, of course, but it's not unusual for these rifts to occur between curmudgeonly, bad-tempered old men and the younger generation, is it? And even Richard Dawkins liked his Atheists for Jesus t-shirt.

unbelievable sophable. I don't understand why so many good Roman Catholics have not made sure this kind of thing is dealt with properly. Lots of people should be going to prison.
[not having a go at you Rhubarb]

Look the church is not the only organistion where this happens and there is inadequate investigations sophable.

You are again drawing on the past. Your article mentioned that the current Pope Benedict has made it his mission to clear the Church from "filth".

Yes when these scandals broke I did write to my bishops and I got replies too. Articles appeared in the catholic press. The church did not shy away from self criticism and many many people remonstrated with those in authority. We are not sheep you know, nor are we blind to what is going on. But I sincerely believe that the Church is trying to change, that they are coming down heavy on those who abuse their ministry.

Sorry that this is such a bugbear to you sophable. May I suggest you take it up with the church itself?

ROFL Aloha at 'the Martha and Mary story (a great inspiration for women who prefer talking to housework)'

he catholic church arn't trying to protect anyone.

being in a same sex relationship is against our religeon.

thats the crux.

until the rules change and popey gets a dream from god - thats the way it will stay.

thats how it is.

now, you can argue that its wrong, bigoted, etcetc

but its how it is.

being that it is such and isnt going to change, the best catholic adoption agencies can do to same sex couples wishing to adopt, is to refer them to another agency to help them - not close the door on them, not look upon them with disgust, not admonish them, stone them, bully them, lecture them, try to make them hetrosexual.

but refer them to someone who can help them.

Aloha, there are women prophets who have written parts of the Old Testament such as Ruth. Martha and Mary were part of Jesus's discipleship. Jesus chose to reveal himself as the Son of God for the first time to a woman and when he rose from the dead, again women were the first witnesses.

You are right about old men's rantings though. As for St Paul, I can't stand the guy! He never even met Jesus, he only had brief instructions with the other disciples and he was just a raver himself.

Alot of the problems are to do with bureacracy. My dad, a priest, cannot talk to the Archbishop of canterbury or make his views known. If he writes a letter to him it will only get seen by some mean minded little nob [i'm so christian aren't I?] who will write him back a curt little reply. If a priest cannot talk to his archbishop, what hope is there for an 'ordinary' person?

Your dad is a priest? Does the Pope know?

[he's Anglican of course...]

Awww, now you've spoilt it!

Does he want to come on Mumsnet and say hello? We're such a friendly bunch!