In monetary terms what constitutes 'middle class'?

[Monkeytrousers]

DP thinks it well over 50k a year and that 50k a year is still aspirational middle class.

(By the way, SP, wasn't aiming to be rude.. I am just disagreeing with you vehemently )

I think the difficulty of finding acceptance in the middle class really came home to me when someone commented to me about one of her friends:

"They are gentlefolk on hard times, like us really".

Which I interpreted as "they, like us, have none of the status symbols of being middle class, but they just are".

Presumably that means that normal poor people are just poor, not 'gentlefolk on hard times'. Not that I am chippy or anything.

When she said "us", she meant "her" - I was definitely not included in the gentlefolk definition.

i agree with shiney, i am me i am not classified.

Paula - think it was Alain de Botton.

We all came from Africa if you go back far enough, homo erectus or whatever. I had my DNA tracked back 25,000 years at www.oxfordancestors.com and my female ancestor was fighting off bears in caves in the Caucasus mountains. I bet she wore very classy fur.

hear hear Xenia

imo earning a certain amount (i.e the 50k+ you mention) could make someone nouveau riche rather than middle class - I think class is a mixture of background, education, lifestyle, attitude and a whole host of other equally hard to define variables.

Yes agree, Posh and Becks are perfect examples, dripping designer labels...

Of nouveau riche that is. ....!

Agree with some others it's not money that defines class.

Dusting off my memories from A level sociology class is determined by your job or parents job if you are a child/non earner.

I used to really piss my step dad off in my teens as I'd tell him that I was middle class, but he was working class - nice (luckily he has forgiven me)

Read The Impact of Inequality instead!

It shouldn't matter at all. Fascinating at my mother's funeral. She was very clever, went to teacher training college, married a student who became a doctor etc left behind her 52 first cousins etc and we never saw them. Anyway come her funeral there we are - and it is as if there is this massive divide from working class NW to us, all people, all Catholics but would be a brilliant case study as to how we got to where we are and they stayed as they were. Obviously the accent, the private school education, the better education in general, the clothes, all those interesting differences but to get that far apart in such a short time I thnk shows that England has a fairly fluid class structure which is good. At least we're not all divided into complex castes from untouchables to pharsees or whatever it is in India.

Xenia, I think you have said it all.

The class system is a mere perception as it is now so fluid it bears no real relevance in life. As I said in my earlier post, it is entirely subjective. Nearly everyone pigeonholes themselves in a particular category in an effort to 'belong' to a group which appeals to them, regardless of whether or not others share their perception.

BTW, I am not stalking you - you appear on every thread that appeals to me. I think we would get along rather well, although I am sure the debates would be heated! What a shame I live in the arse end of nowhere, and have to rely on mumsnet for decent, intelligent debate and conversation!

I think the growing underclass would disagree

The poor will always be with us.... I am not sure they are growing. We always had people with mental health problems, low IQ, feckless, unable to hold down jobs etc. It's all there in Dickins. Plus ca change.

the class system is sadly still very relevant indeed. Just look at school catchment areas/results, or (better still) any statistics which show parents' occupation against academic acheivement.

Oh I see - we still have a class system but any problems suffered by those lower down in the system are their own fault. Is that right?

Xenia fgs mental health issues doesn't mean poverty!?!?

actually nh they often do due to the difficulty in holding down a job.

There are definitely those with any kind of illness who can't work and therefore live a below average lifestyle but it is not always true.Xenias tone is one of blame not concern.

what is 'poor' though, there seems to be a big jump in people that can just about afford to get by and people who can afford tons of holidays/lots of changes of car/private schools etc.

My mother called me middle class when I prepared rack of lamb with wholeseed mustard and breadcrumbed crust...
I am a kiwi and class is a curiously English thing.
I always have been curious about what truly constitutes middle class.

You would certainly peg my PIL as middle class, two mercs, massive £500k stone built house, high income retired. 3 kids went to private boarding school
But they are really very traditional working class backgrounds MIL's papa was a coalminer, mother uneducated past 14 years homemaker.
FIL was from wet west of Ireland very basic upbringing.
They made good by hard work ended up with high flying careers in corporate finance all over the world - hence the boarding schools.
But call them middle class and you'd be be shot down...