father wins high court case against £60 fine for taking his DD out of school

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I couldn't see this anywhere else, so apologies if there is another thread.

The news this afternoon is that a father who took his DD out of school to go to Disney World in Florida has won a case against his LEA and school who tried to fine him for it.

I think this will change things, especially as flights are so expensive this summer in particular.

The Tory party simply want to spread misery while they laugh all the way to the bank. Miserable people in hospital and education. Miserable family life with no time for anything other than the tred mill of work, mortgage, bills and tax.

OOI,

Who can remember anything they were supposedly taught at school?
What information did you learn actually helps you in every day life?

Obviously, if you are reading this, you did learn to read and write. And you have learned sometning of critical thought. But what of geography, physics, chemistry, French. Is school about learning how to get on with other people rather than rote learning facts?

The DfE pronouncements on this do sound like they still have the stamp of the Gove Controller all over them.

What kind of message does the whole 'every day missed is a disaster' approach give to children who are ill or who need a hospital operation?

And the fact that none of this stuff applies to private schools and that things are different from England in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, seems to suggest the English state school draconian approach isn't necessary.

Ouriana..having children is a choice and parents know school holidays exist before they have them. Many teachers have partners who also can't take holidays during the school fixed ones...should they never have a holiday with their loved ones? I know a teacher who has a husband in the forces. Their child (rightly so) can take holidays outside of term time. They have to go as a father-son instead of a family as she is unable to take time off. Surely the same applies?

How come the rest of the world don't need this fine system?

I've actually been wondering about this because I grew up/went to school in a different country and have lived in two others before coming to the UK and I have never heard about taking children out of school for a holiday before I came here. In my 13 years of schooling I can not remember a single incident of a child not being at school because of a holiday.
I know this is a different discussion, I'd still be quite curious to know how this is dealt with in other countries.

limey many private schools have strict attendance policies - of course, the difference is that the school can terminate the contract they have with the parent in those cases.

Those saying that the governments draconian approach has removed professional discretion - well, yes. Because the headteachers unions asked for it.

professionals were increasingly unhappy with the responsibility placed upon them as it caused breakdown in the school/home relationship when the discretion used didn't align with the parents opinion.

I know this is a different discussion, I'd still be quite curious to know how this is dealt with in other countries.

Culturally, we tend to include parents in their child's education a lot more than many other countries. For instance, in England, we have given parents the legal right to complain about their DCs school and the requirement for the school to respond, something that does not happen in countries such as Finland, which is considered a model of good practice.

As a result, I think the relationship between schools and parents are different - having the right to question and challenge results in less respect for the education sector here than in other countries, and so parents believe that "they know better". That attitude towards teachers is certainly not one I've heard in other cultures.

The attitude towards schools and teachers is changing where I come from TimeforaNNchange parents get a lot more involved and questioning. I certainly see a massive difference between my parents' attitude 30 years ago and that of my siblings with children at school now. But there isn't even the option of home schooling (I know some people who are trying to change this) so yes, the relationship between schools and parents is a bit different.

I am glad things changed. I went to a very nice church school and remember a Harold Bishop lookalike assaulting children. Nobody would touch him with a bargepole then. Now he would be sacked. Thank goodness things moved on so voilent and sexual abuser teachers are no longer tollerated. Clearly they are still trying it on.

There was a poster who was French & thinking of moving here, but was shocked to hear she wouldn't be able to take her son on trips without fines.

So I think other countries just get on with it, and maybe accept that parent trumps teacher.

Private school also often have longer/different holidays so they can go away when it's cheaper anyway. No need to take them out of school and why would you when your paying for it.

Indeed MigGril when dh taught at a private school they had a month for Christmas & Easter, 2 months in the summer, 2 week half term in October, plus 2 other week long half terms.

I think what's bugging me about the English state system is that it's almost corrupt.

Yes, you can take your children on holiday during term time, without being taken to court, as long as you give a wedge of money to the town hall.

I've seen many posters on MN advise each other to 'suck up the fine, it's cheaper than waiting for the school holidays'.

I find this system lazy and cynical tbh.

The Tory party simply want to spread misery while they laugh all the way to the bank

The implication that Tory politicians benefit personally from this is ridiculous.

The fines were, of course, introduced by Labour. All the Tories did was agree to requests from head teachers and teachers to tighten up the rules. Previously the wording of the rules meant that head teachers felt that they had little choice but to agree to parents taking up to 2 weeks holiday per year in term time. The new rules make it clear that they do not have to agree to any holidays.

Note that, contrary to the impression many people have, head teachers DO have discretion over holidays. When a head teacher tells you that they cannot agree to your holiday because they have no discretion what they really mean is that they have decided against approving your holiday but want to pretend it is the government's fault rather than admit that they are personally saying no.

So I think other countries just get on with it, and maybe accept that parent trumps teacher

Some countries don't have fines. Some do. Germany and Holland, for example, both have fines.

It is worth noting that, whilst many of those complaining talk about poorer families being unable to afford to go away during the school holidays, the reality is that most of those taking term time holidays are, like this father, able to afford to go at peak times. They simply choose not to. It is also worth noting that the statistics show this policy has been very effective at reducing persistent absenteeism which was the goal.

Yes, you can take your children on holiday during term time, without being taken to court, as long as you give a wedge of money to the town hall.

Strange definition of corruption. By that argument it is ok to park illegally without being taken to court as long as you give a wedge of money to the town hall. It is ok to speed illegally without being taken to court as long as you give a wedge of money to the authorities. And so on.

It is worth noting that, whilst many of those complaining talk about poorer families being unable to afford to go away during the school holidays, the reality is that most of those taking term time holidays are, like this father, able to afford to go at peak times

Agreed. I said earlier that all this bloke has done has made it harder for the actual struggling parents - those who go for a long weekend, or add a couple of days to bank holidays etc. Families that are as likely to go to Disneyworld as they are to fly to the moon.

...the Tories did was agree to requests from head teachers and teachers to tighten up the rules.

So they are spreading misery and do as HT's tell them or the HT request suited their agenda?

From a purely organisatorial POV for me it would be worse spending 5 days annual leave each during term time because we need the annual leave for the school holidays. It would have to be a massive saving to make up for the problems the lack of annual leave would cause me later in the year.

The fines were, of course, introduced by Labour. All the Tories did was agree to requests from head teachers and teachers to tighten up the rules. Previously the wording of the rules meant that head teachers felt that they had little choice but to agree to parents taking up to 2 weeks holiday per year in term time. The new rules make it clear that they do not have to agree to any holidays.

The fines were introduced in 2013. Labour were last in power in 2010.

I don't know what you mean about 'the rules', the law (Education Act 1996 444 (1)) says:

If a child of compulsory school age who is a registered pupil at a school fails to attend regularly at the school, his parent is guilty of an offence.

People were being fined on the basis of this. The High Court ruled yesterday that 'regularly' did not have to mean attendance everyday. The law did not change.

It is also worth noting that the statistics show this policy has been very effective at reducing persistent absenteeism which was the goal.

I'm sorry but you are completely wrong on this point.

Look at the Government's own figures:

www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/509989/SFR10_2016_text.pdf

Overall and persistent absence has gone UP since fines were introduced so they don't work if reducing absence is their aim.

jelly fining was not introduced in 2013. That was an amendment to the act.

It was initially introduced in Sections 444A and 444B of the Education Act 1996 and empowered authorised officers of the local authority, headteachers and the police to issue penalty notices to parents for non attendance.

There will always be families living near the boundaries of the 'region' that have DCs in both. It's only workable if there are large tranches of rural land or water between the areas

I still think staggered holidays would be a good solution. There can't be all that many kids who go to school in a different county from their siblings?

Plus if this policy was introduced parents would soon get used to it and would factor in different holidays in different regions when picking their children's schools.

I'm a bit biased though, I think the long summer holiday needs to be shorter. So kids get the same amount of time on holiday but more shorter holidays.
I don't think the long summer break serves some kids well - they forget a lot over those six weeks.

I do think it's entirely up to the parents if they want to potentially damage their kids future. We don't regulate food or exercise, why education.

Parents willing to take their kids out for 4 weeks, will generally have low aspirations and not be supportive of school work. (I realise I am generalising). Let them crack on, we cannot level the playing field with respect to parental involvement, it's an accident of birth.

There is a LOT of snobbery on these threads. Bad parents are taking their kids out to sun themselves in Benidorm and good parents are going on educational holidays or valuable visiting relatives time. BULLSHIT. At least have the courage of your convictions if you're going to do this- you and Benidorm mum are as one (I don't think either of you are wrong)

Living on the boundary between three counties, I know plenty of families where primary children are at school in one county and secondary children are at school in another - and these different county schools are their closest schools.