father wins high court case against £60 fine for taking his DD out of school

[var123]

I couldn't see this anywhere else, so apologies if there is another thread.

The news this afternoon is that a father who took his DD out of school to go to Disney World in Florida has won a case against his LEA and school who tried to fine him for it.

I think this will change things, especially as flights are so expensive this summer in particular.

[var123]

...there is plenty of evidence showing a direct correlation between attendance and educational outcomes.

prh47bridge I think we need to be careful of not reading too much into a correlation which may well be spurious.
If the research looked at attendance below 90% (say) and educational outcomes, then it would not come as a surprise that the correlation is high. However, it would be surprising if you got the a similar difference in outcomes if you were to compare two similarly able groups, but one had attendance of 95-98% (say) and the other had 99.5%+.
Also, I think it matters when you take time off. I can't see what difference missing a couple of weeks in year 2 would make, but the fortnight before GCSEs would be a lot more significant.

[prh47bridge]

However, it would be surprising if you got the a similar difference in outcomes if you were to compare two similarly able groups, but one had attendance of 95-98% (say) and the other had 99.5%+.

The research shows correlations on smaller levels of absence than you think. However, I would agree that it is a stretch to say that a single day of absence causes a measurable difference in outcomes. Of course, parents are not generally fined for single absences unless it forms part of a pattern.

The timing may make a difference but I certainly wouldn't say that missing a couple of weeks in Y2 won't matter. Some key concepts are covered in Y2. Yes, the child has a long time to catch up but, if they've missed the introduction of a key concept, it can cause problems.

[Kitla]

Prh47bridge - can you please share links to these correlations, or cite them so I can look them up myself. As a teacher, I would genuinely be interested in reading this.

Thanks.

[apple1992]

Kitla, she might be talking about this: www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/509679/The-link-between-absence-and-attainment-at-KS2-and-KS4-2013-to-2014-academic-year.pdf
I haven't seen other research; would be interested to see it if there is more.

[var123]

The thing with Y2, in my experience, is that things get repeated over and over, and then over and over again. Then, in case it hasn't gone in, it all gets repeated again in year 3, and year 4, if necessary.

I know a child who missed the entire KS1 and caught up by the end of year of Year 3 without any extra help whatsoever. Actually I don't think they were behind even at the start of year 3 as they could read, write and do sums by then.

[Ilikecakes]

I'm shocked at an earlier suggestion that the summer holidays should be shortened! Kids in England do some of the longest hours in Europe, have the shortest summer breaks and guess what, don't achieve spectacularly well compared to their European counterparts. I've been living in Ireland for the last few years where primary kids are only in school til lunchtime, have two weeks off at both Easter and Christmas, a week's half term in both October and Feb and yet still have all of July and August off for the summer. Secondary kids have three whole months off for summer. Their results outshine the UK's consistently too.

I'm about to return to England and am generally positive about the return to the English system but can't help feeling something's very amiss when parents are lectured about the importance of 100% attendance in what seems to be an unnecessarily busy or completely inefficient school curriculum.

FWIW even in the Irish system with its extended summer break, my DS's school happily waved us off for a two week term time break that I freely admitted to them I simply couldn't have afforded during holiday time. No-one died, my DS's education continued apace upon his return and we spent valuable time together as a family. I wouldn't dream of doing similar in later years (he was in Reception equivalent at the time), but the government needs to trust parents to make appropriate decisions for their own families, not impose rigid, inflexible rulings that stifle family life.

[Woodhill]

And Dc go to school later on the continent. I don't like the way the government is so dictatorial in England.

[TimeforaNNChange]

teachers should not have to spend class time helping the children who missed stuff due to a holiday catch up

I don't think I know a single teacher who would allow a DC to struggle rather than help them - either at their own expense and/or the expense of the rest of the class.

[jellyfrizz]

Time, there are always children working at different levels, some struggling with work the majority can do. Of course you don't let anyone struggle. You differentiate the work, as you would be doing anyway.

[var123]

teachers should not have to spend class time helping the children who missed stuff due to a holiday catch up

I was thinking more of secondary school on that one. If, for example, your DC misses the first half of a KS3 Science topic on Electricity (say) due to an unnecessary absence then the parent should buy one of those study guides/ log in to BBC bitesize etc and make their child learn it at the weekend.

[TimeforaNNChange]

Time, there are always children working at different levels, some struggling with work the majority can do. Of course you don't let anyone struggle. You differentiate the work, as you would be doing anyway

So you're saying that pupil absence doesnt create additional work for teachers ?

Are you a teacher yourself?

[Kitla]

Time,

No I personally do not find it does create significant extra work. But I teach secondary. Combination of good differentiation, inclusion of regular recaps and plenaries and older students perhaps, but I personally find the 'impact on other learners' argument to be quite spurious.

[Kitla]

Oh and yes, Jelly has also said on this thread that she's a teacher too.

[TimeforaNNChange]

Fair enough kitla. I know the HT unions disagree - what about teaching unions? Do they have an official position? If the law was changed to allow parents to take DCs out, but prevented schools form doing anything to support those DCs to catch up - would the unions be in support of that?

[mercifulTehlu]

I'm teacher (and parent) and I don't know what the rules should be tbh. On the one hand I want to agree with those posters who are saying parents should be allowed to use their common sense. But some parents don't have a great deal of common sense and might keep their dc off school for all sorts of rubbish reasons if they could get away with it.

The claim that 'even a single day off school can have a serious effect on a child's progress' is just bollocks though, unless they are missing a vital revision lesson in the immediate run-up to their GCSEs or something. Kids miss lessons all the time for all sorts of reasons (instrumental lessons, illness, staff illness, special school events, school photos, jabs, etc etc).
As for creating extra work for teachers - it shouldn't usually have to imo. Give child a copy of any worksheets etc and/or get them to copy up the missed work from another pupil.

[TimeforaNNChange]

get them to copy up the missed work from another pupil.

Why the hell should my DD be asked to "help" their friend catch up because her friends parents took her on holiday?

If my DDs teachers ever asked her to do that - either in class, so reducing her own progress, or during break, which is my DDs own time, I'd be furious.

DCs are expected to comply with teachers requests -my DD wouldn't think of objecting.

[Kitla]

Copying off a friend is not usually a big deal... Most of my students just take a photo of their friend's book to complete later. Hardly something to get het up about, and I think most students can cope with 5 seconds of inconvenience.

I'm sure I'm not the only teacher who instructs students to take photos on their phone to complete work later... Most of my colleagues do similar.

My daughter does the same at her secondary too.

[mercifulTehlu]

Really? I wouldn't be the slightest bit bothered if my dd were asked to lend her book briefly for another pupil to copy up something they had missed (for whatever reason). Neither would dd - in fact she'd probably be pleased that hers had been chosen as a good example from which to copy. Dd wouldn't be actively using her own time or effort to help, and it wouldn't do her any harm in any way. I expect she'd be glad to be able to assist, and would be grateful to anyone else who helped her in that way if she'd missed something.

[mercifulTehlu]

Phew Kitla! Glad it's not just me who thinks copying up is a completely normal thing to do. I am sometimes baffled by the normal school practices to which some parents take such grave exception.

[TimeforaNNChange]

Learning takes the form of a great deal more than the written word.

"What does this mean?" "How does that work?" "Why do we do it like that?".

If all teaching involves is worksheets and students writing notes, then why does it take so long for teachers to plan lessons?

[mercifulTehlu]

Learning takes the form of a great deal more than the written word.

Yes of course it does. But unless you expect a teacher to actually re-teach the whole lesson that's been missed every time any pupil misses a lesson for any reason (however 'authorised'), then copying up or getting the worksheet etc is what happens. Would it be ok for a pupil to just get a worksheet or copy something out every lesson? Absolutely not. Is it ok when they occasionally miss lessons? Yes, definitely, in my opinion. If the child then needs further explanation, then that can be given.

[TimeforaNNChange]

If the child then needs further explanation, then that can be given.

By whom? When? I'm sure most, if not all, teachers are more than willing to spend a bit of one-to-one time with a student who has missed class because of illness, or a family funeral - but because their dad took them skiing with extended family? Are they really happy to give up planning time, break time or take time out of teaching the other DCs to help a DC catch up then?

My question is rhetorical, because plenty of teachers have posted on MN saying they aren't happy about having to do that, or deal with the criticism of those parents when their DC doesn't do well. So there isn't even consensus amongst professionals. It's no wonder the government isn't leaving the decision to HT discretion - because there is no consistency amongst the teaching profession and unions are arguing amongst themselves

[mercifulTehlu]

I agree there needs to be consistency or it isn't fair. I just can't get myself that worked up about time missed for the odd holiday (unless it became a lot more common). The increase in workload caused by absentees pales into teeny insignificance compared with the amount of workload caused by ill-advised government interference, excessive testing and pointless data-collecting exercises.

[Kitla]

Well said Tehula

[Kitla]

Or Tehlu even!