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father wins high court case against £60 fine for taking his DD out of school

172 replies

var123 · 13/05/2016 13:56

I couldn't see this anywhere else, so apologies if there is another thread.

The news this afternoon is that a father who took his DD out of school to go to Disney World in Florida has won a case against his LEA and school who tried to fine him for it.

I think this will change things, especially as flights are so expensive this summer in particular.

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prh47bridge · 14/05/2016 10:31

Sorry for the unfinished sentence. That should say that like the 1944 Education Act it required parents to ensure regular attendance.

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BurnTheBlackSuit · 14/05/2016 10:32

The fine needs to be higher than the saving made by taking a term time holiday, otherwise it's not a deterrent.

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LineyReborn · 14/05/2016 10:35

Which brings us back to, what is regular attendance? I think the bar is set at 85% in Northern Ireland before ed welfare action is taken?

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prh47bridge · 14/05/2016 10:36

You are confused = I am trying to confuse you

Alright - you are wrong. I am not trying to confuse you. I am stating facts. It seems you don't like those facts but they are facts nonetheless.

Accusing me of altering history = psychological transference

You really can't cope with the facts, can you. Like it or not penalties for unauthorised absence were introduced by a Labour government. I congratulate them for doing so.

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SocialDisaster · 14/05/2016 10:44

Interesting insights you gave away about yourself there when transferring stuff again.

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SocialDisaster · 14/05/2016 10:50
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jellyfrizz · 14/05/2016 10:54

I personally think the fines are a good thing as should be apparent by my posts.

And you are entitled to your opinion, as are people who disagree with you.

As these fines for above 93% attendance are now not legal (and it would seem never were not matter which idiots in power brought them in) what do you suggest the law is changed to?

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RedToothBrush · 14/05/2016 11:03

Hello ToryBot.

I am not another child's parent. I am my child's parent.

I am a unique free thinking individual.

Free thinking individuals, that do not always conform are what historically, have made our country great.

I believe that education is essential. I also believe that education comes in many forms and can and should be done by parents and teachers. Indeed, the role of parents in education around the world repeatedly comes up as one of the biggest factors in high attainment.

Yet the ethos here is that parents should be seen and not heard and it is only teachers who have a valued role in education.

Instead of dealing with actual problems in attendance, schools are becoming factory production lines where children are processed rather than catering and considering individuals needs. And if teachers complain they don't have the time to do this, I seriously wonder what they are there for, because education is about the development of children. If teachers don't have the time, then something is going seriously wrong somewhere and it needs to be addressed.

We have a massive problem in this country with mental health. And we make this worse by not recognising the importance of mental health. We do this by not having adequate mental health services and not having a national debate about ways we can improve the nations mental health by other means. We do not record data on the state of our children's mental health.

Our European counterparts have the advantage where many can take a car journey and pop over the border to see their neighbours and soak up another culture. We don't have the same luxury by virtue of being an island, so we are rather more 'held hostage' by airlines, ferry companies and Euro-tunnel pricing. This is something of a national disadvantage. Of course this is not valued by Tory Leavers and Kippers, but an exchange of views is good for creativity, which is what this country is good at and should be encouraged.

ToryBot, I view parents as humans. Not statistics. If children are failing at school, its not due to the fact they are going on holiday is it? Can we possibly find some evidence for that, and also have a measure for their emotional wellbeing too as that's only fair.

If children are failing at school, perhaps we should address that issue. Perhaps we should address why they are truant rather and schools SHARE responsibility rather than merely blaming parents or treating them as naughty children, when many in that situation actually need support and advise themselves for various reasons. Fining them is only making a bad situation worse.

ToryBot exams are not everything. I would rather my son was a B or C grade student who was happy, fulfilled, well rounded and full of enthusiam for life rather than an A* student who had a very narrow view of the world, that was only academic and they were stressed, miserable and burnt out.

ToryBot, I demand the freedom to have the life I think my family should have and the future they deserve as your version and definition of success is most definitely not mine.

Incidentally I think there are a fair few LabourBots about too, who got very carried away with targets in school too, so don't think you are special ToryBot. I have my own special venom for them too.

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jellyfrizz · 14/05/2016 11:05

I would rather my son was a B or C grade student who was happy, fulfilled, well rounded and full of enthusiam for life rather than an A student who had a very narrow view of the world, that was only academic and they were stressed, miserable and burnt out. *

^^ This.

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SocialDisaster · 14/05/2016 11:09

Everything RedToothBrush said.

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jellyfrizz · 14/05/2016 11:35

There is also a 'near perfect correlation' between pupils' wealth against their exam results (Financial Times study).

This would suggest that fines are the complete opposite of what you should be doing to increase attainment.

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var123 · 14/05/2016 12:25

Education is really important, IMHO.

If you take your child out of school without good reason so frequently that it effects their progress, then you are selfish and you probably don't particularly support their education anyway. The children of those parents probably do need protecting from their parent's inability to make good decision.

However, the rules (until yesterday) were very harsh. They didn't allow for any flexibility, which is necessary as you can't legislate for every eventuality.

If the government re-writes the law to say what we all thought it said until yesterday, then we won't be any worse off than we were last week. However, i hope they don't. I hope they put in a clause about discretion with a right of appeal against a less than compassionate HT. (I am not thinking of annual holidays btw).

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var123 · 14/05/2016 12:28

I would rather my son was a B or C grade student who was happy, fulfilled, well rounded and full of enthusiasm for life rather than an A student who had a very narrow view of the world, that was only academic and they were stressed, miserable and burnt out.

I am more of the camp that thinks school is for work and if you have to choose between work and fun, then its work first and fun can come later.

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RedToothBrush · 14/05/2016 12:32

Then that's for you to decide and be happy with but not to impose on others.

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jellyfrizz · 14/05/2016 12:39

Then that's for you to decide and be happy with but not to impose on others.

This is what I don't understand, why do people get all het up about other people's children missing school?
If you believe there is causation between attendance and attainment and believe that exam results are the most important part of education you should be pleased other students are off, your child will have less competition when applying for jobs, uni etc.

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var123 · 14/05/2016 12:40

absolutely. IMO there should not be fines, but there should be staggered holiday dates to ease the structural problem and teachers should not have to spend class time helping the children who missed stuff due to a holiday catch up

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var123 · 14/05/2016 12:41

jellyfrizz is that's aimed at me, then I just agreed. its for each family to decide their own priorities.

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jellyfrizz · 14/05/2016 12:50

var123, it was more a general point about people making their own decisions and not enforcing their views on others.

There are many different views on what makes a good education and what the outcome of that should be.

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var123 · 14/05/2016 12:54

I agree. Success is not a linear thing.

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RedToothBrush · 14/05/2016 12:58

teachers should not have to spend class time helping the children who missed stuff due to a holiday catch up

In all the time I was at school, if I was off with illness (including two weeks in GSCE) it was ALWAYS up to me to catch up. The teachers never did help.

Not once.

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apple1992 · 14/05/2016 13:16

Redtooth - many parents would expect the teacher to ensure the child isn't behind. Part of our culture now is to blame the teacher/school when a child is not successful. I'm sure that is not the opinion of many MNetters, but it certainly seems like that from a school perspective.
A parent complained last week that we had not done enough to ensure their DC performed well during y10 mocks, but they've just been away for 2 weeks!

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apple1992 · 14/05/2016 13:17

I agree with the benefit of family holidays, but I think suddenly waivering fines and allowing term time holiday will cause all sorts of wider issues in education, unless there are drastic changes in terms of our expectations and how children and schools are judged.

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prh47bridge · 14/05/2016 13:50

If children are failing at school, its not due to the fact they are going on holiday is it? Can we possibly find some evidence for that, and also have a measure for their emotional wellbeing too as that's only fair

I don't know who you are calling ToryBot but there is plenty of evidence showing a direct correlation between attendance and educational outcomes. Emotional wellbeing is harder to measure and is not currently used as a measure of school performance. However, there is also a direct correlation between educational outcomes and life chances, which is measured in ways that don't just include wealth but also covers such matters as the level of happiness.

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RedToothBrush · 14/05/2016 13:51

Redtooth - many parents would expect the teacher to ensure the child isn't behind. Part of our culture now is to blame the teacher/school when a child is not successful

Do you think saying that parents are not responsible enough to make decisions about their child's education by banning family holidays in term time, helps or hinders that mentality? The fact that ALL the responsibility is currently put on teachers culturally rather than encouraging parents to take a role in that responsibility is actually part of the problem.

How do you think we shift the idea that education is a SHARED responsibility and that the best academic AND social successes are achieved with partnership between teachers and parents. As has been pointed out on this thread and others, education is not restricted to the classroom and by the look of it perhaps this needs to be stressed in political targets and agendas a lot more.

I think perhaps your point, misses the entirety of that particular debate and it needs to be looked at with a wider vision as to how we solve the problem of teacher's carrying the blame for problems.

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apple1992 · 14/05/2016 14:12

I agree with you redtooth. I don't think there is a quick fix or simple answer, and if there is one I don't have it!

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