Why does the Labour Party not support Brexit?

[FlatulentStarfish]

Forgive me, I am not brilliantly knowledgeable about politics. But what I can't understand is why are the Labour Party not supporting Brexit? I always understood that Labour supported the British poor and working classes. Surely these are the very people who are being most hurt by remaining in the EU. One newspaper described the referendum as a battle between the Haves and the Have Nots. Why are Labour abandoning their people? The old Labour politicians such as Tony Benn were always anti EU.

'I genuinely fear an exit from the EU, and politicians like Johnson, gove, IDS et al'

Well that is what the Etonian Cameron and the banks wanted you to fear. We were told we would lose £4000, that Isis would be happy if we left the EU, that there may be war in Europe, that millions of jobs would be lost, and that we would still have to accept free movement.

This is the "politics of fear" that the professor said the European elite uses to trick the people.

After the referendum, the Tory party will be split. Half the Oxbridge graduates will be fighting the other half of Oxbridge graduates. It will be the Establishment stooges versus the democrats who backed the Britosh people against the Brussels bureaucrats. There will be infighting and what Major called "the bastards" etc and it will prevent cohesion among crooks.

Out of the ashes and after the lies and scaremongering, a complete realignment of British politics will emerge and the people, victorious over the scaremongering elites, will get a chance to get real democracy.

PR will have to be granted as even the useless Labour politicians like John McDonnell and Establishment Chuka Umunna are now demanding.

Cameron and the Etonian gang will be damaged and a new set of possibilities will emerge as the British people regain control over their democracy and punish the stooges who tried to scaremonger them and tell them they weren't good enough to run their own country.

But aren't EU commissioners are appointed by democratically elected governments, the head of the commission then voted in by MEP's whom we do directly elect?

A complicated system for sure, perhaps one that needs reform, but not the completely the undemocratic demagogues that Brexiters paint them as.

And the council consists of foreign ministers and members from national parliaments as i understand? so we vote them in/out in national elections do we not?

Claig you misunderstand. i'm not an idiot. i'm not in fear because the pro-EU 'elites' have put the wind up me.
I'm in fear because i recognize who the lunatics are in this debate.

'Half the Oxbridge graduates will be fighting the other half of Oxbridge graduates'

It will be like the old days on Brighton Pier - the Sods versus the Fockers. And the people will watch and laugh while the Brussels bureaucrats cry.

It will be a new bright future of democratic rule and a discredited elite of losers who tried their best, along with the banks and the IMF, to scare the people but failed.

'I'm in fear because i recognize who the lunatics are in this debate.'

Then why are you backing Cameron, Osborne, Heseltine, the IMF, JP Morgan and Goldman Sachs when Tony Benn and Kate Hoey and the Blairite Labour bigwig from Birmingham were/are all against it?

And lest I forget, the person the Establishment are trying to gag and keep away from the cameras, Tony Blair is also for Bremain. He would say that, wouldn't he?

'i'm not in fear because the pro-EU 'elites' have put the wind up me. '

I agree, it is not working, the people have seen right through their desperate Establishment ploys. Can you imagine the bollockings some of the heads of banks and corporations are dishing out as their panic grows that the people might defeat them?

"David Cameron's doom-laden warning of Brexit causing war in Europe is rejected by NINE in 10 voters"

Andrew Neil. Portillo etc were on This Week last night.

Liz Kendall was worried that there was no strong case being made by Labour and that might mean that Labour couldn't get their people out to vote for Bremain. Portillo said if turnout is low, it would help Brexit wh are passiinate to escape and regain freedom.

Then they asked Andrew Neil what he thought and the Establishment across the country held their breath, and Neil said he thinks the turnout will be low, below 60%, less than the election, just as it was less in 1975 too.

The panic on the faces of the Etablishment must have been a sight to behold as they dropped their glasses of champagne and hit the floor with a thud as their legs wobbled and they fainted with fright.

In living rooms across the country, the people cheered as true democracy neared.

we can't possibly know what Benn's position might be in this particular instance.

I'm backing Bremain because i like being part of Europe, i don't see it as the anti-democatric organisation you clearly do, and because i genuinely believe that national borders will and are becoming irrelevant (i completely agree with McDonnell on this). We need to move past narrow ideological nationalisms. Of course it's not easy, and (as i've said infinitum above) the EU is far from a perfect model. but it's the model we have and should work to reform, not retreat behind outdated isolationist political models.

OK, you agree with McDonnell and Cameron. That is what democracy is all about. We can't all agree. We will have to wait and see whether the Establishment convinces the people or if the Brexit team do.

We will know that the British people are close to victory when the Establishment pull out their last stop, when Cameron says that Lucifer, Genghis Khan, Attila the Hun and Vlad the Impaler would have been for Brexit.

And Boris will carpe diem as he rightly says, in the style of the Demos speaking to Cratos

"Baldedash, piffle and poppycock. This is the biggest stitchup since the Bayeux Tapestry"

People really seem to object to the free movement of people, and I get how that might hit the poorest. Those with no skills whatsoever, who live unstable lives because income isn't reliable and who have no prospects. I understand why there is a lot of fear there.

But, going one rung up from there, those who have skills and are mobile, can somebody explain to me how removing their right of movement will help them? Brexiters want free trade (so multinationals still have free movement), but clamp down on the movement of working people. how is that supposed to help working people?

Exactly, so if we accept the ultimate democratic rights of the individual, wouldn't that mean that you have the right to work and live where you choose?

As a side note it's interesting to see ( in the context of MN) that most women overwhelmingly back remain

(from the guardian live blog) " A definitive trend has emerged that women are significantly more likely than men to say they would vote to Remain in the EU. At 15 points, the Remain lead amongst women is twice as large as it is among men (seven points – 51% to 44%)."

Control, not clampdown. Introduce a selection process.

'Brexiters want free trade (so multinationals still have free movement), but clamp down on the movement of working people. how is that supposed to help working people?'

It won't happen. Skilled workers will get visas to work all across Europe. City banks will still employ French, German, Spanish etc skilled workers. All that will happen is that low skilled EU workers will not have as easy access to the labour market, which will allow low skilled workers already living in countries to have a greater chance of gaining employment and of obtaining higher wages as demand begins to outstrip supply.

"The claim: Iain Duncan Smith says that more than three quarters of the rise in employment in the last year has come from people born abroad.

Reality Check verdict: The latest figures support this."

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36333410

It won't happen.

speculation at best. And other countries examples suggest you are wrong.

Companies (big wealthy ones like microsoft and google) in the US scream bloody murder about the H1B (skilled workers visa) quotas. The quotas are reached very early in the year, so companies and consequently foreign workers are waiting in the lurch for another year.

But those are banks and bankers. What about less glamorous and less well paid work? Trades, admin staff, all those positions and movements will be clogged up with a our insatiable appetite for bureaucracy.

All that will happen is that low skilled EU workers will not have as easy access to the labour market, which will allow low skilled workers already living in countries to have a greater chance of gaining employment and of obtaining higher wages as demand begins to outstrip supply.

sure, some of that will happen. There is a nasty flip side though. If there is a free trade deal, companies in Britain will have to decide if the lower wages in other countries is worth moving shop. For some companies the draw of Britain will be too high, and for others it won't be. So, for the companies that do move, all those jobs will be lost. For the companies that stay, those workers will have less competition.

I am not convinced it is a clear win for the poor.

Guardian Economics Editor comes out loud and clear for Brexit:

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/may/20/brexit-best-answer-to-dying-eurozone-eu-undemocratic-elite

"Staying in the EU means hitching ourselves to an undemocratic project run by and for a remote elite" Larry Elliot

'Companies (big wealthy ones like microsoft and google) in the US scream bloody murder about the H1B (skilled workers visa) quotas'

Yes because the US has close on to 350 million people. We only have 60-70 million, and we will have very close ties to all of the EU countries as we leave them after all the years of collaborating and harmonising with them. Those links will remain as our businesses remain integrated with the EU. All that will happen is that we have the best of both worlds, access for skilled doctors, IT professionals, bankers, accountants etc to the UK and Europe, but limits on the low skilled workers that can access our labour market.

'What about less glamorous and less well paid work? Trades, admin staff, all those positions and movements will be clogged up with a our insatiable appetite for bureaucracy.'

Yes, plumbers and PAs will not be able to work as easily here or ours in Poland etc, but the traffic has generally been one way where we have taken far more low skilled workers than we have our low skilled workers working in Poland, for example. The number of our low skilled workers who will be affected by not being able to work in Europe will be dwarfed by the numbers of low skilled EU workers who will not be able to work as easily here.

'If there is a free trade deal, companies in Britain will have to decide if the lower wages in other countries is worth moving shop. For some companies the draw of Britain will be too high, and for others it won't be. So, for the companies that do move, all those jobs will be lost. '

But this already happens now including offshoring outside the EU.

'For the companies that stay, those workers will have less competition.'

Yes, which means that the workers' wages will increase and the companies will be able to make fewer profits than they were able to make under Tony Blair and the gang when they opened us up to millions of EU workers without a transitionary period as most of the rest of the EU countries such as France and Gemany implemented.

'Guardian Economics Editor comes out loud and clear for Brexit:'

Larry Elliot is a very well respected, long standing economic commentator with a prestigious track record. I saw him years ago in London, together with Jeffrey Sachs and Martin Sorrell, at an economic meeting in the City. Very good commentator, knows his stuff.

Cameron would be well advised to listen to hs advice.

Yes because the US has close on to 350 million people. We only have 60-70 million, and we will have very close ties to all of the EU countries as we leave them after all the years of collaborating and harmonising with them.

The first two sentences are irrelevant.

You have a lot of faith in this Tory/Labour government, in a post Brexit UK. There will be enormous pressure to limit immigration. Somehow, you expect a complete change of the immigration system won't affect very skilled workers and there won't be any maxed quotas and a smooth bureaucracy to let enough people in in a timely manner.

Good luck with that. Perhaps your government scepticism should apply to the post Brexit government.

the traffic has generally been one way where we have taken far more low skilled workers than we have our low skilled workers working in Poland, for example.

with trades that is likely because of the housing boom. We have a skills vacuum in trades. There are jobs a plenty. Filling those jobs is only bad for those workers, and trades get paid incredibly well. Employers and ordinary working families like mine who have to hire those workers win.

No one likes competition. Bankers don't. Doctors don't. Plumbers don't. But everyone who uses those services loves competition.

But this already happens now including offshoring outside the EU.

exacerbating the problem helps... who exactly?

Yes, which means that the workers' wages will increase and the companies will be able to make fewer profits

is this really the best way to help low skilled people? So they remain vulnerable to the next government who reverses the policy? We should be investing in training. There are many jobs that you don't need 10 years of training for which we don't have enough workers. We shouldn't encourage people to remain in communities that have low paying or no work in jobs that are vulnerable. This system of ours isn't helping the poor, and neither is the proposal of keeping them in a state of low skills.

chilipepper you raise some excellent points

You have a lot of faith in this Tory/Labour government, in a post Brexit UK.

If you don't trust Cameron, Osborne and Corbyn, why on earth would you believe them that "remain" is a good idea?

I think the parties will have a good shakeup after the referendum so hopefully Cameron, Osborne and Corbyn will be replaced at least.

I have faith in the sovereignty and democracy of the UK and the way we elect our MPs who are accountable to us. I do not have faith in Juncker (renowned for repeated lies), Merkel and her plans for an EU army, the unelected Commissioners who draft new laws, or secret trialogues being part of the law-making process.

We have general elections every 5 years at the most, so we can and do eject governments when enough people don't like them or they go too far. There have been numerous changes of government in the past century and the equilibrium normally swings back to politics that are near the centre.

The far right is rising in the EU as people have got disillusioned with it. It's a failing project. And yet we can't vote out the EU, and we can't reform it.

'You have a lot of faith in this Tory/Labour government, in a post Brexit UK. There will be enormous pressure to limit immigration. '

No I don't. they are all Oxbridge, all in it together. There won't be much real change on immigration but our laws will no longer be made by Brussels. However, theer is a chance that low skilled workers will find it harder to enter our labour market. The political class will not harm our economy by restricting skilled workers if we have a skills shortage.