Why does the Labour Party not support Brexit?

[FlatulentStarfish]

Forgive me, I am not brilliantly knowledgeable about politics. But what I can't understand is why are the Labour Party not supporting Brexit? I always understood that Labour supported the British poor and working classes. Surely these are the very people who are being most hurt by remaining in the EU. One newspaper described the referendum as a battle between the Haves and the Have Nots. Why are Labour abandoning their people? The old Labour politicians such as Tony Benn were always anti EU.

'If you have tried to hire people to do any house work you will quickly get the impression that there is more work than people to do it. That hurts the many people who need work done.'

Yes, I think it is because we do not have enough supply and enough building jobs of council hmes etc to create supply. We need to take our unemployed and give them apprentices and qualifications and then we need a mas building programme of houses etc so that people can earn money, use skills and improve our living environment.

We can't keep importing hundreds of thousands of people per year without training our own people. We should be training more nurses etc and expanding the quality of service instead of importing nurses from all over the world and depriving their countries of those skills.

If necessary, we are going to have to pay 5% more so that people can earn a living wage. Instead of paying 2.5% more in VAT which goes to the bureaucrats who give it to charidees and their mates who "mesmerize" them, give it to people in wages.

none of what you say is specifically about Brexit.

Also, if our government is supposed to be responsible for "our people" why shouldn't they hire nurses from abroad? That is a huge benefit to us. we don't have to pay for training.

the other thing is that you have conveniently forgot about all those brits in europe. Their free movement is also a benefit to our people.

'none of what you say is specifically about Brexit.'

It is because Brexit enatils the free movement of labour which the bosses want in order to keep wages down. Without free movement of labour, the bosses would have to create training schemes etc to employ our unemployed, therebu giving them a good future and reducing the taxpayer benefit bill.

'Also, if our government is supposed to be responsible for "our people" why shouldn't they hire nurses from abroad? '

Because that means that we will not train our own people up, leave them on the dole and increase the pressure on our schools and services. We are a community that should work together as a team to meet our own needs and be independent. We owe our citizens a good future.

'That is a huge benefit to us. we don't have to pay for training.'

It is a huge benefit to our bosses and Blair and the gang but it does nothing for our people and their education, training and prospects.

'the other thing is that you have conveniently forgot about all those brits in europe. Their free movement is also a benefit to our people.'

Apart from the pensioners who have money to retire abroad, most Brits are skilled workers and won't be affected because skilled workers will still be employed here and there.

It's all this talk of our 'own' people they turns me off.
I have friends from all over the world, some live close, others abroad. They're 'my' people. I have more affinity with 'my people'living in say Germany than some bloke in Essex (for example) that I've never met but happens to hold a UK passport.

that turns me off..

It is because Brexit enatils the free movement of labour which the bosses want in order to keep wages down. Without free movement of labour, the bosses would have to create training schemes etc to employ our unemployed, therebu giving them a good future and reducing the taxpayer benefit bill.

it's not only bosses that want to keep wages down. Everyone wants to keep prices down. The trouble is that the government is subsequently keeping the cost of living up with a screwy housing system. That's where the government should be focused, and that can't be done if we are waiting for a new generation of plumbers to be trained when there is a whole group from the EU willing and wanting to do the work. There is a housing crisis NOW, not 10 years from now.

The rest is all conspiracy theory.

Because that means that we will not train our own people up, leave them on the dole and increase the pressure on our schools and services.

schools and services need teachers and doctors. isn't that good?

We are a community that should work together as a team to meet our own needs and be independent.

why? There is no reason for this except some romantic notion of independence that is 100 years old. We wouldn't have 80% of the luxuries we have if we thought like that.

but it does nothing for our people and their education, training and prospects.

tell that someone who has recently been in hospital, and who has had good care. Those people didn't have to wait 5 years so your scheme could train nurses.

Brits are skilled workers and won't be affected because skilled workers will still be employed here and there.

pure speculation. you have no idea what the EU will impose on workers from Britain, in the same way you have no idea of what the quotas will be here. You seem to think absolutely nothing will change for skilled workers, which is pure fantasy.

Your entire thinking rests on the well being of one significant, but by no means, the only demographic and it's not clear that they will definitely benefit.

'It's all this talk of our 'own' people they turns me off. '

You sound like Cameron and Blair. Yu are a UK citizen and we are in the UK and UK citizens are part of our country and their parents and themselevs have paid in and contributed to our country and are citizens and we all owe them a good future above the future we owe to citizens of other countries.

You might not like some of them, but that is irrelavmt, as citizens of this country, they deserve the best future possible.

'it's not only bosses that want to keep wages down. Everyone wants to keep prices down. '

No, there is a tradeoff. We have minimum standards. We could scrap the minimum wage and allow employers to pay £1 per hour and scrap benefits to keep wages and costs down, but we don't do that because we think that is unacceptable.

'that can't be done if we are waiting for a new generation of plumbers to be trained when there is a whole group from the EU willing and wanting to do the work. There is a housing crisis NOW, not 10 years from now.'

It doesn't take more than 3 months to train plumbers. We should be training lots of them and carpenters and builders etc etc, not bringing in lots of peopl efrom abroad whose qualifications and CVs we can't even check.

'The rest is all conspiracy theory.'

If you are referring to Bremain, I think you have a point.

'schools and services need teachers and doctors. isn't that good?'

Yes, but we need teachers fluent in English and doctors too and we need to give opportunities to our citizens to earn good wages and have good careers.

'We are a community that should work together as a team to meet our own needs and be independent.

why? There is no reason for this except some romantic notion of independence that is 100 years old. We wouldn't have 80% of the luxuries we have if we thought like that.'

Because that is what makes a country and a nation state. We are all in it together, unlike the political class who are in it together with the Brussels bureaucrats. We build our communities and structures together and want all our citizens to thrive and live well and contribute to the betterment of all of us. If we don't do that, we create atomization and shark eat shark and we allow whole communities to be left behind and that is not acceptable.

'tell that someone who has recently been in hospital, and who has had good care. Those people didn't have to wait 5 years so your scheme could train nurses.'

We can employ teh people we currently do while training up many new young people to skill them up for the future. We don't need to bring in new people to do these jobs when we can train our own.

'you have no idea what the EU will impose on workers from Britain, in the same way you have no idea of what the quotas will be here. You seem to think absolutely nothing will change for skilled workers, which is pure fantasy.'

They are all in it together, the politicians do what their lobbyists and business backers tell them to do, so for skilled workers there will be little change across Europe as businesses will want to trade as before. All that will haooen is that the political classes will no longer be able to impose laws on us from Brussels.

'Your entire thinking rests on the well being of one significant, but by no means, the only demographic and it's not clear that they will definitely benefit.'

No, you asked me about workers. I said that skilled workers will be unaffected, but foreign low skilled workers will not gain as easy access to our labour market which will allow our low skilled and unemployed to get jobs and higher wages. For our citizens, we will be better off, apart from the political class whose jollies to Brussels and perks will be removed.

i didn't say i don't like them, only that i feel no sense of affinity with them. I'm a uk citizen by accident of birth (as are you) not by some god given right. we all have shared values.
I owe nothing to my UK ancestors simply because they or i am from the UK. I owe everything to those people, whether from Germany, Greece or Goole, who have struggled to ensure better living conditions, better pay, suffrage, etc. etc.
TBH it's very patronising to instruct me of my Patriotic Duty (whatever that means).
The best future i can offer to my kids and my community is to continue this struggle, and right now that’s by voting to remain, not brexit into some right-wing xenophobic dysotpia with BoJo, Gove and Farage in charge.

Yu are a UK citizen and we are in the UK and UK citizens are part of our country and their parents and themselevs have paid in and contributed to our country and are citizens and we all owe them a good future above the future we owe to citizens of other countries.

replace UK with EU. Why doesn't it work just as well?

We don't owe anyone a good future. I don't know about you, but I want to have a society where people have opportunity, and that is very different than promising them a good future. Keeping wages up won't do that. What we should be working on is lowering the cost of living. The trouble is that our business has to compete with everyone else in the world, and making it more difficult for them to hire the best talent for the best price doesn't do any of us any good.

'i didn't say i don't like them, only that i feel no sense of affinity with them. I'm a uk citizen by accident of birth (as are you) not by some god given right. we all have shared values. '

Yes, and you are very lucky to be a citizen of this country by birth and as a citizen you have a duty to help other citizens just as they help you.

'I owe nothing to my UK ancestors simply because they or i am from the UK. I owe everything to those people, whether from Germany, Greece or Goole, who have struggled to ensure better living conditions, better pay, suffrage, etc. etc.'

You sound like Blair and McDonnell. You owe our institutions, our democracy, our trained health professionals, our fire service, our police service, our army etc to the citizens of this country, past and present. You are a product of the historical struggle and development of the British people and the rights that you currently enjoy were won by past generations and present.

'TBH it's very patronising to instruct me of my Patriotic Duty (whatever that means).'

I am not instructing you. I am saying what I think. If you want to think like McDonnell, that is up to you.

'The best future i can offer to my kids and my community is to continue this struggle, and right now that’s by voting to remain'

If you think that voting with Cameron, Osborne, Blair, JP Morgan and Goldman Sachs is the best thing to do, then go ahead. But have a read of Tony Benn, Guardian economic editor, Larry Elliot, and all over the place Paul Mason, in case those socialists have a point of view different to Blair, Cameron, Osborne and Goldman Sachs.

It doesn't take more than 3 months to train plumbers.

are you saying there is a large group of Brits who just can't wait to be plumbers, but the only thing in the way is the lack of a training course? oh, if it was that easy.

Because that is what makes a country and a nation state. We are all in it together,

who sounds like Cameron and Blair now?

That's not what makes a modern nation state. Unless you are North Korea, no nation is independent. we are totally interdependent for trade, goods and labour. Some countries need plumbers, some need doctors and some need retirees to bring in foreign capital.

we are not in it all together. That's plain. I have much more in common with many people from other countries than I do with some other Brits. I owe each of them a hell of a lot more than I owe some random other citizen who doesn't even know me.

We can employ teh people we currently do while training up many new young people to skill them up for the future. We don't need to bring in new people to do these jobs when we can train our own.

your first point: that's what we are doing. We are training nurses. as to your second point, are you a health economist? Do you know how much it costs to train health care professionals from scratch? can schools be quickly expanded to churn out all these nurses and doctors? all these details... they need to add up.

the politicians do what their lobbyists and business backers tell them to do, so for skilled workers there will be little change across Europe as businesses will want to trade as before.

again, 100% speculation, and nothing more. That's all you have in this regard, when there is evidence to the contrary. Google and microsoft can afford thousands of lobbyists between them and can't seem to get enough workers in the US.

'replace UK with EU. Why doesn't it work just as well?'

Because the EU is not a nation and the German political class cared less about the Greek people than it did about the German people and also care less about the British people than the German people.

Some of our political class care little for us too, but we can vote our lot out and we can't vote the German political class out.

'We don't owe anyone a good future. I don't know about you, but I want to have a society where people have opportunity, and that is very different than promising them a good future.'

Opportunity is a good future. Being on the dole without the prospect of a good job, with training and a good wage is not an opportunity. We have lots of things that need fixing and doing in this country and giving people the economic opportunity to do them gves them a good future and improves society's future.

'Keeping wages up won't do that. What we should be working on is lowering the cost of living. The trouble is that our business has to compete with everyone else in the world, and making it more difficult for them to hire the best talent for the best price doesn't do any of us any good.'

We can't lower the cost of living unless we create a communist society where we limit price increases etc and that all has to be paid for out of taxes and the productive economy. What we can do is grow our economy and grow our wages to improve our living standards.

We don't need to import the basics, pots and pans from China etc, we could make them all ourselevs and create employment for our people, just as we could make our own steel and not put our steelworkers out of work.

Much of our economy is servicing our own internal demand for 60 million people and that can be supplied by us rather than importing it more cheaply from abroad while denying our citizens the opportunity for employment.

'are you saying there is a large group of Brits who just can't wait to be plumbers, but the only thing in the way is the lack of a training course? oh, if it was that easy.'

Yes, there are 1.7 million unemployed. instead of that scheme they had a few years back where they wanted them to stack shelves in Tesco or lose their benefits, they should be trained up as plumbers and carpenters etc.

'who sounds like Cameron and Blair now?'

How dare you! They are Oxbridge and Bremainers! Mates of Goldman Sachs, mesmerized by their mates in charidees! How very dare you!

'Unless you are North Korea, no nation is independent. we are totally interdependent for trade, goods and labour. '

That is what the globalists have done to us deliberately and that is why Goldman Sachs likes the EU, but as Trump is showing in America, America First is coming back and Trump will tear up the globalists' interdependent free trade deals like TTIP and TPP and NAFTA

'I have much more in common with many people from other countries than I do with some other Brits.'

This is McDonnell talk. As a member of this community in this country, the laws and customs and policies apply to the people here and not in Albania however much you may have in common with them. You live here on this island with the people here.

'We are training nurses'

In my local paper, we read how they trained midwives for three years and when they graduated there were no jobs for them. That is not acceptable.

'can schools be quickly expanded to churn out all these nurses and doctors? all these details... they need to add up.'

Where there is a will there is a way. If our political class got their act together, they could set it in motion just as we turned spoon factories over to help the war effort when we had to.

'Google and microsoft can afford thousands of lobbyists between them and can't seem to get enough workers in the US.'

Don't believe them. there are lots of graduates out of work in the US and the tech companies still lobby for more visas so that they can keep wages down.

come to think of it claig you're right, i do owe a lot to past generations. i owe a lot of my relative prosperity and opportunities as a UK citizen to generations of exploited workers/slaves in our former colonies.

I am a product of the historical and intellectual struggle of the working class of all nations, may of them European.

if i sound like McDonnell then good. For the first time in my lifetime there's a Labour party that fully represents my values and aspirations, including the position they've taken on the EU.

Actually that's not true, as i love Michael Foot, but i was too young to vote then ;-)

As a member of this community in this country, the laws and customs and policies apply to the people here and not in Albania however much you may have in common with them

You've hit the nail on the head there! I want Laws and policies to apply equally across the EU; i want greater integration. This is why i vote to remain

'I want Laws and policies to apply equally across the EU; i want greater integration.'

OK, then you are with Blair, Cameron, Jeremy Clarkson, Osborne, McDonnell and Goldman Sachs.

We who disagree with that are with Tony Benn, Guardian economic editor Larry Elliot, Kate Hoey, all over the place Paul Mason and Mother Teresa.

Yes, there are 1.7 million unemployed. instead of that scheme they had a few years back where they wanted them to stack shelves in Tesco or lose their benefits, they should be trained up as plumbers and carpenters etc.

so, it's not the lack of training facilities then? because that's what that says.

Where there is a will there is a way.

pesky thing called money.

Don't believe them. there are lots of graduates out of work in the US and the tech companies still lobby for more visas so that they can keep wages down.

they want to hire an engineer for 80k a year instead of 100k to keep costs down? more power ot them.

'so, it's not the lack of training facilities then? because that's what that says.'

No, it is the lack of a plan. They wanted people to stack shelves which gives them very limited skills. They should be trained in skilled employment so that they can start their own businesses and partnerships and they should be given interest free loans and follow through business support for the first few years of operation.

'pesky thing called money.'

Have you seen hw much money our Oxbridge political class wastes on being mesmeried by their public schools mates in what are called charidees and ringfenced foreign aid? There is lots of tapayer money that is wasted on moats, flipped homes and charidees that could be used to create training and employment.

'they want to hire an engineer for 80k a year instead of 100k to keep costs down? more power ot them.'

They shouldn't be allowed to do it if it means bringing people in from abroad. They should hire Americans and pay the market rate.

They wanted people to stack shelves which gives them very limited skills.

why? it doesn't do them any good. and what was stopping them from getting training?

They shouldn't be allowed to do it if it means bringing people in from abroad.

nativist attitude with no basis in economics. The indians that have gone to america have enormously benefited and so has india itself as many have gone back with skills.

there is such a lack of global imagination in such ideas. Always looking inward and not seeing what's beyond little britain/america. this exchange of people and places is what makes ideas go.

They should hire Americans and pay the market rate.

the biggest interference a government can put up to the free market is a border to labour, so don't pretend the market rates are important.

'they want to hire an engineer for 80k a year instead of 100k to keep costs down? more power ot them.'

I think they would have liked to get training, but they were too busy stacking shelves.

'The indians that have gone to america have enormously benefited and so has india itself as many have gone back with skills.'

Yes, but didn't America have checks and educational requirements on who they allowed in? Also in this election cycle, H1B visas etc have become an election issue as US graduates are coming out of college with debt up to their eyeballs and often no jobs are available. Trump has had to do some flip-flopping on H1B visas.

'Always looking inward and not seeing what's beyond little britain/america. this exchange of people and places is what makes ideas go.'

No because this is OK for bosses and politicians who are on gravy trains with expenses etc and who aren't affected by looking for employment. The first duty of a politician should be to their voters and their constituents looking for work.

'the biggest interference a government can put up to the free market is a border to labour, so don't pretend the market rates are important.'

This is the whole point of the debate. Goldman Sachs and most of the gravy train political class want globalisation and want to create a global market in employment throughtout the EU and worldwide, wherever labour is cheapest. This is the position of the globalists. However, we now have nativists like Trump who say America and Americans First and that applies to immigration and employment. The nativist says that the employment market if the US is a US market and not a global market and therefore a US company cannot take anyone from anywhere in the world to work for them at the lowest price and needs to look at the American market and pay the American market rate. The globalists and the gravy train politicial class in the pockets of big business say no, the market is global.

McDonnell, the socialist, agreees with the globalists that "open borders are inevitable" and essentially says that the nation state will end in the same way that the political class controlled by the lobbyists does.

The EU is an attempt to end the nation state which is what big business has always wanted.

Once you end the nation state, you end democracy since you are governed supranationally by an elite you can't remove. All you see is a gravy train political class that has no real power and control and is dictated to by big business via treaties such as TTIP etc.

you posted an almost identical bit about the magna carta about 250 posts ago.

Yes, I've posted similar information on a few different things regarding the EU on more than one occasion. That's because the same questions keep coming up time and again, from different people, and I would like to answer them.

Most websites that I can find about the history of human rights in the UK seem to mention the Magna Carta as a starting point for their development.

One of the roots of the history of human rights (in the west anyway) is generally traced from citizenship in the the Greek city states. Shared cultural history is yet another reason to Remain.