Why does the Labour Party not support Brexit?

[FlatulentStarfish]

Forgive me, I am not brilliantly knowledgeable about politics. But what I can't understand is why are the Labour Party not supporting Brexit? I always understood that Labour supported the British poor and working classes. Surely these are the very people who are being most hurt by remaining in the EU. One newspaper described the referendum as a battle between the Haves and the Have Nots. Why are Labour abandoning their people? The old Labour politicians such as Tony Benn were always anti EU.

[lovelyandnormal]

I don't mind Gove!

He opened my school (newish academy) and is actually very intelligent and pleasant. He just is unfortunate enough to look rather, well, goofy!

[claig]

Duncan Smith has also been very impressive and courageous and has put the people first.

[Homeriliad]

Claig - your belief that somehow the UK is so big and special that the EU will submit to our every demand is nonsense.
They didn't give Cameron any of his substantial reforms did they?

[claig]

'He just is unfortunate enough to look rather, well, goofy!'

He used to be more goofy, but as he has grown into the job, that has all been overshadowed because of his great sense of humour, which along with his intelligence and principled courage, stands out above anything and makes him appealing.

[Homeriliad]

Oh and re Corbyn: Corbyn came out in favour of remaining in the EU while Miliband was still party leader

[claig]

'Claig - your belief that somehow the UK is so big and special that the EU will submit to our every demand is nonsense.
They didn't give Cameron any of his substantial reforms did they?'

Be under no ullusion, all of the bigwigs and bureaucrats in Brussels are frightened as hell of this referendum and of the British people, because if we choose to vote out, then their whole dream will collapse. We will be able to get everything we want with good negotiators, not amateurs like Cameron.

'They didn't give Cameron any of his substantial reforms did they?''

They didn't have to give Cameron anything because they knew he was a bluffer, they knew he was Establishment, and was just pretending and playing to the gallery. They probably knew he would say that WWIII would become more likely if we dared to leave their bureaucratic club. So their negotiators had a laugh as they "negotiated" with amateur Establishmentarian Etonian Cameron. They sent him home with a flea in his ear and a kick up his jacksie and probably advised him that he might want to try the WWIII line and to call upon Gordon Brown to help out if things started to look really desperate.

[Brokenbiscuit]

at the idea of Gove being appealing!!

[LittleBearPad]

To balance Claig's Oxbridge obsession which they really need to move on from.

Because they believe that staying in thr EU is best for the UK and its people. For example, free trade saves people money. Employment legislation driven by initiatives in the EU has improved employment benefits in the UK as well. Being in the EU makes us safer.

[TheOldMonkey]

Going back to the working class and people on low incomes, surely they are about as low as they can get in monetary terms? In the event of the Brexit, wouldn't it be the middle class and the elite who would be most hit in their pockets should the economy take a dip? Isn't that why the establishment are so desperate to prevent the UK leaving?

Also, not all economists are predicting everlasting doom, some say there will be a dip but we will recover. I cannot see the business community not pulling out all the stops to make new trade deals. I imagine it is easier for them not to have to do this just for the sake of making the lives of the working class better.

Did not those same economists predict that the UK not joining the Euro would end in financial disaster?

[HildurOdegard]

Short answer : labour is all about taking the decision-making process out of people's hands. This is just a step further - they can relinquish control to someone else. No more decisions, just dishing out rules from elsewhere.

[LittleBearPad]

if Corbyn joined the Leave camp and Establishment Etonian Cameron was defeated, he would be out on his ear and Corbyn would be a national hero and would opossibly win the election. If the Etblishment lose this referendum, they will be discredited and everything in politics will change

1. There is no way Jeremy Corbyn will ever be prime minister. He doesn't want to be for one thing or he'd be a lot more visible. He was also elected leader by 0.5% of the electorate who aren't typical of the U.K. voter.
   

1. Things in politics will not change as a result if this referendum no matter what the result. Do you seriously imagine that: the civil service will revolutionise themselves, that the type of people we have as MPs will alter irrevocably, that the C of E will be disestablished, that the judiciary will change and that Fleet Street will do an about turn whilst HM decides to abdicate. That's the establishment you have such a bee in your bonnet about. All will still be in place post-referendum. The only change will be that George Osborne will likely be prime minister.

[MuddhaOfSuburbia]

Lololol at ids putting the people first

And at all these folk on r4, fishermen and the like, who think they'll be better off out of the eu

Yeah, right. Like this government gives two shits about its industries and working people. Look at port Talbot

Without the eu as a safety net the tories will have us back to the 1920s and beyond

[claig]

'Do you seriously imagine that: the civil service will revolutionise themselves, that the type of people we have as MPs will alter irrevocably, that the C of E will be disestablished, that the judiciary will change and that Fleet Street will do an about turn whilst HM decides to abdicate. That's the establishment you have such a bee in your bonnet about. All will still be in place post-referendum. The only change will be that George Osborne will likely be prime minister.'

No, if we win this referendum, everything will change here and in the EU, because the EU will collapse shortly afterwards.

At the end of the day, we are a democracy and are governed by the will of the people. But that all depends on whether our political class have the backbone to stand up for the people. Some of them don't, but as we have seen, Gove and Duncan Smith and Kate Hoey etc do. The civil service will have to do as the political class decide. The MPS will alter irrevocably because they are mainly toadies who want to hold onto their seats and expenses and to continue to climb the career ladder which means pleasing power. They will in general go whichever way the wind blows. The C of E are irrelevant to power. Fleet Street will continue to oppose the EU (e.g. the Daily Mail and the Sun etc). The Queen will be unaffected and we don't know what she really thinks about it all. George Osborne now stands no chance of being Prime Minister because he chose to side with the toadies. Boris jumped ship and joined the people which is why whatever happens and whoever wins, the people will reward Boris for being on their side.

[Brokenbiscuit]

Going back to the working class and people on low incomes, surely they are about as low as they can get in monetary terms? In the event of the Brexit, wouldn't it be the middle class and the elite who would be most hit in their pockets should the economy take a dip? Isn't that why the establishment are so desperate to prevent the UK leaving?

What makes you think the poor can't get any poorer? If the economy took a nose dive, I think the poor would be the hardest hit.

The elite will be just fine no matter what. Those in the middle will also take a hit, but people with sought-after skills will have more options, such as going abroad for work if necessary.

[purits]

Let's look at Port Talbot: the Government could have intervened to try to save jobs but they are not allowed to offer State help under EU rules.
What numpty world are we in where our politicians are not allowed to help our workers because it might disadvantage people in another country?

[claig]

As Portillo said on This Week last night, the more Establishment people rally round for Remain, the more likely it is that the people will take the opportunity to give the Establishment a kicking, as they have done in referendums in Europe repeatedly.

Poor oldl Osborne. With friends like Blair and Brown, who needs enemies?

The longer this goes on and the greater the rollcall of reprobates gets, they more they warn of catastrophe and calamity and wars and biblical floods, the more the people's decision will be made for them. The British people are not stupid, they know when they are being had.

[FishWithABicycle]

Because England is actually quite right wing and left wing people are in a minority, only getting into power when they adopt more right-wing policies. However, broadly over the whole EU there are more left-wing representatives so being in the EU means that we get more left-wing policies enacted (e.g. maternity rights, employment rights) which is a good thing imo. Brexit would allow the tories unrestrained ability to shaft the working poor and workless poor much more than they have been able to in the last 25 years.

[SocialDisaster]

If the middle class are hit they will cancel the cleaner, cancel the gardener, the window cleaner, Dad's home care and the Starbucks coffee, the home improvements or extension. Thinking about it middle class women will be hit hard if it's that group that suffers, along with the working class.

I doubt a post Britex economic downturn would last long though. I do think long term it's going to be better for all.

If you want workers rights like maternity pay, don't vote in BoJo.

[purits]

They don't warn of 'catastrophe and calamity'. They warn of a possibily of C&C, that C&C might happen. Then the media write it up as 'they said C&C will happen'.
Lots of commentators are making very vague statements covered in caveats but Bremains are leaping onto the comments to say that they are concrete support for the Bremain view.

[purits]

Brexit would allow the tories unrestrained ability to shaft the working poor and workless poor much more than they have been able to in the last 25 years.

The split between Tory and Labour has actually been fairly even over your chosen timeframe.

I don't see how Labour helped the poorer classes when it was them that allowed unfettered immigration from the accession countries (eastern europe) which undercut and suppressed wages. It was during Bliar's time that the rich got richer and the poor got poorer. It was under Labour that housing became unaffordable.

[OTheHugeManatee]

I think those on the left who still think the EU is on their side and can act as a brake on the malignant rapacity of neo-Thatcherites like George Osborne haven't been reading the news. Didn't they see what EU austerity policies have done in Portugal, Italy, Greece and Spain? Italy hs lost a third of its manufacturing and has 65% youth unemployment in places. Youth unemployment is 50% in Spain. Greece's rate of pauperisation is shocking and the suicide rate has gone up 35% since the 'bailout' (in reality a load of money that went to French and German banks and that Greece was left on the hook for). Greece hs also been forced by the EU to implement anti-union policies and a destruction of its welfare state that dwarfs anything our fairly centrist Tory government could come up with.

15 years ago yes, the EU brought in some nice sounding social rules. But even if back then it had a dream of a 'social Europe' its policy-making engine has since been captured by corporate interests and now makes decisions in the interests of banks and big business, not ordinary people. And with the EU democratic deficit there is very little pushback against its decisions, because you can't vote out the unelected Commissioners who take them.

I salute the brave few in Labour Leave who have been able to see past the groupthink to what the EU actually is and does nowadays, what it hs become and how utterly it disregards the interests of the working people supposedly represented by the left. I just wish there were more of them: the left-wing case for Leave is IMO stronger than the right-wing one and Labour's official stance on this is just the latest in a series of appalling betrayals of the people whose interests they are supposed to protect.

[OTheHugeManatee]

A footnote on the 'The EU protects us from the nasty Tories' line.

If the EU really acts as a brake on the privatising and welfare slashing instincts of those horrid Tories, ask yourself why George Osborne is so keen on it. Does he really want his hands tied? No - Osborne is for it because he sees no conflict between the operations of the EU - remote, unaccountable, in hock to banks and big business - and his own dream of a purely Treasury-driven government, able to make decisions in the interests of growth and nothing else, and with none of that pesky pushback that comes from people being able to vote you out.

Far easier to set rules mandating permanent austerity at EU level (yes, this has happened) than to have to deal with irritating national governments and opposition parties who can hold you to account.

Osborne and his 1% ilk LOVE the EU because it removes the politics from policy (or that's the intention anyway) and leaves it in the hands of a supranational civil service that no-one can get rid of.

It's been a long time since the EU was a bulwark against Tory excess. Quite the opposite nowadays - it is a vehicle for the interests of big business.

[claig]

'Does he really want his hands tied? No'

I think he has no choice. His hands are tied and he has to go along with it because we are not an independent country and a large part of our laws are set by the EU to such an extent that we are unable even to set our own immigration policy.

Under the EU, we have zero hour contracts and the casualisation of temporary labour and union rights have decreased. Industries of strategic national importance cannot be subsidised and supported in order to allow for unfettered free market big business competitive policies. The EU has given some social and worker policies as a sop because it has to keep the people on side, but look what it did in Greece when it had the chance. If we got into the same trouble, the EU would do the same to us. They would send a Troika over to us and our political class would be powerless because their hands are tied.

The whole "opposition" to the EU among most of the political class has been a charade. They pretended they didn't like the rules, they said they wanted reform while knowing that meaningful reform and return of sovereignty was impossible. It was a con game on the people and now it has been exposed as the political class face their Waterloo and throw out all the stops such as nightmarish tales of possible war in Europe if we aren't careful.

[Popocatapetl1234]

Because no one in their right minds supports Brexit! It would be a disaster - particularly for the poor. So even though Labour would dearly love to shaft Cameron and Co they are not that irresponsible when it comes to the overall welfare of the UK and their core voters.
Do you really think anyone would be better off in a country led by clowns like Boris and Nigel? And George Galloway.......

[claig]

'Do you really think anyone would be better off in a country led by clowns like Boris and Nigel?'

As opposed to Cameron and Osborne? Hmmm, it's close.