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Cruz is out?

123 replies

CheerfulYank · 04/05/2016 01:43

So Donald Trump will be the Republican nominee.

Is this real life? Is this my country?

What is happening? I know one person who supports Trump. ONE.

OP posts:
candykane25 · 06/05/2016 22:37

I don't think it's in tne capabilities of any one person to do what you are claiming Trump can do.
Austerity measures aren't working in the YK. The deficit isn't being halved. Deficits and world economics are a different beast.i don't have an economics degree but I don't think it's that simple.

claig · 06/05/2016 22:44

'Austerity measures aren't working in the UK'

Absolutely, but Trump is not for austerity for the US, the world "leaders" will have to take the austerity because America won't. Yesterday Trump talked about being open to raising the minimum wage, he wants to slash taxes and bring jobs back by teraing up the free trade deals and renegotiating them in America's favour.

I think that America is strong enough with a tough leader to cut deals with Russia and China and make other countries pay up. I think that is what Tump will do. I think he will make it work, but he may fail, we will have to wait and see.

STIDW · 06/05/2016 22:46

Trump as US President would be a disaster for the UK;

  1. He questions the need for NATO, thinks the US is spending too much on Europe’s defence & may need to scale back its involvement significantly. That would weaken our defences at a time when north Africa & the Middle East in turmoil, & Russia flexing its muscles when we need a strong security policy.

  2. Trump is a protectionist & protectionism hasn’t work well in the past. He has threatened punitive tariffs on other countries & said he doesn’t mind trade wars.

  3. He is a bully who could try to order us around on trade, finance or foreign policy. If we leave the EU the UK with a population/market of 65m would be vulnerable. If we remain with the rest of the EU it would be too big too bully.

He is supported by about a third of voters & many of the remaining 2/3 don't like him so it's doubtful he will win.

misssmithx · 06/05/2016 22:46

I love threads like these. Remember when everyone was whining about the Tories getting into power and posters saying 'workhouses will be back?'

Total paranoia from so many posters

claig · 06/05/2016 22:48

"Trump: Puerto Rico Needs to Write Down Debt"

blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2016/05/05/trump-puerto-rico-needs-ability-to-write-down-debt/

Trump agrees with Obama, write down the debt, not austerity.

And today, Trump dropped a bombshell

"Donald Trump’s Idea to Cut National Debt: Get Creditors to Accept Less"

www.nytimes.com/2016/05/07/us/politics/donald-trumps-idea-to-cut-national-debt-get-creditors-to-accept-less.html

All the experts say it is impossible, but I think Trump may cut a deal and find a way.

cavedescreux · 06/05/2016 22:52

I think Trump is all talk. It's why he messed up so badly on the abortion issue - he doesn't really believe half of this stuff (unlike Cruz who is terrifying). He just said it to win the candidacy. I agree, it's not great, but I doubt it will make a huge difference in the longer term.

claig · 06/05/2016 22:56

' He is a bully'

Absolutely, but as he says in his rallies, he is going to get rid of the useless political hacks who negotiate trade now and replace them with some of the best business people in New York and across the US. Trump says in his rallies

"some of them are horrible human beings, you wouldn't like to have lunch with them or spend time with them, but, hey, who cares? They'll get the job done"

I think that is what is going to happen. Trump will get the job done and the world "leaders" will be apologizing and the lucky ones will get a good deal from him.

claig · 06/05/2016 22:58

'It's why he messed up so badly on the abortion issue - he doesn't really believe half of this stuff'

I agree. He hasn't thought through a lot of stuff, he is not a "politician", but he does know the direction he thinks is important on what he considers the core issues.

VocationalGoat · 06/05/2016 23:05

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

STIDW · 06/05/2016 23:10

Total paranoia from so many posters

Tell that to the Scots. Trump promised jobs & investment in Scotland which never materialised & bullied local residents. Residents were threatened with eviction from their homes after refusing to sell to Trump & he built huge walls of earth around residents who objected to him developing a wilderness site. Workers cut off the water supply to an 86-year-old woman leaving her at least 5 years without a safe & reliable water supply. He had 2 filmmakers arrested & charged with the breach of the peace olny for the charges to be thrown out by the Crown Office.

Nice, ehh?

claig · 06/05/2016 23:17

STIDW, no one denies that Trump is hardball. He's the very definition of the term. He wrote the book on it - "The Art of the Deal". That is why Cameron doesn't know what day it is when Trump's name is mentioned, he goes to pot.

candykane25 · 06/05/2016 23:26

Right, so claig you're saying other countries will have to pay up.
And tnen all the other countries say, OK USA you pay us and we'll pay you. You're not selling him terribly well I'm afraid.
America already has a rep of thinking they're the most important country in the world. There's no such thing.
I think, from what you are saying, the US could become isolated and shrink.

claig · 06/05/2016 23:32

'I think, from what you are saying, the US could become isolated and shrink.'

That is what his opponents say, the conservative establishment National Review and ex world "leaders" like Vicente Fox. But Trump says he will Make America Great Again. I think he will force lots of countries to pay up and they will do it. He has said that NATO countries will have to pay up, Japan and South Korea and Saudi Arabia will have to pay up and Mexico and Japan and China and Vietnam etc will have to end the trade imbalances. I think he will get his way.

'America already has a rep of thinking they're the most important country in the world.'

They are, but they don't enforce it, but under Trump they will, I think, which is why we read endless reports of Davos and world "leaders" being worried sick and knocking back Alka-Seltzers like they were sweets.

claig · 06/05/2016 23:51

"But when European leaders were then asked to return the favor, and offer their "opinions" on the ever-controversial rhetoric of Donald Trump -- both British Prime Minister David Cameron and German Chancellor Angela Merkel just as emphatically and surprisingly punted.

"I've made some comments in recent weeks and months. I don't think now is a moment to add to them or subtract from them," Cameron said during a news conference, drawing laughter from the crowd.

He added: "You always look on at the U.S. elections in awe of the scale of the process and the length of the process, and I marvel at anyone who is left standing at the end of it."

And Merkel two days later was even more terse.

"I concentrate on the task ahead for 2016. I'm quite busy with that, thank you very much. And I'm looking with great interest at the American election campaign," she said.

This, a few months after Trump branded Merkel's acceptance of more than a million refugees "insane," predicted riots and called her leadership "catastrophic."

But both nations have not been so shy in expressing their derision of the American political rhetoric before, making their silence now all the more striking."

edition.cnn.com/2016/04/25/politics/obama-donald-trump-angela-merkel-david-cameron/

Everything has changed from just a few months ago when they could take swipes at Trump and have a laugh. Now they hold their tongues because they know where the power lies.

mathanxiety · 07/05/2016 01:51

Misssmithx, substitute 'food banks' for 'workhouses' and the paranoia quickly morphs into realism.

CheerfulYank Fri 06-May-16 17:10:53
LOL at the violence at rallies being caused by the left! You can't be serious.

claig Fri 06-May-16 17:12:44
It's all over alternative media. The left wing billionaires who back it etc.

There is a lot in American alternative media that can be taken with a large pinch of salt.

I know several protesters who were at the rally in Chicago and they most certainly are not backed by left wing billionaires. They are all middle aged RC Maryknoll lay missionaries and some Lutherans, who all spent several years, often with young families in tow, working in Central America and Mexico mainly as doctors, nurses and midwives, and who are heavily involved in other social justice campaigns in Chicago such as ending gun violence, improving access to healthcare and preschool education and supporting community organisations seeking to close urban coal powered power stations that were causing disease. They also gather to pray every Friday evening outside a facility that houses people being deported, and at a street corner in a dangerous neighbourhood one evening per week in Spring and Summer to show solidarity with the people who are trying to live normal lives there, and just to be a presence that will hopefully encourage residents to come out and take the streets back from the gangs.

mathanxiety · 07/05/2016 04:23

You hear a lot about the religious right in America but the religious left gets overlooked to a large extent.

mamamea · 07/05/2016 08:05

To me it is obvious that Trump will win.

America already rejected Clinton in 2008, when they turned instead to an unknown black man named Barack Hussein. And in 2015, the (un) Democractic establishment attempted to rig the election for her by offering her not a single plausible opponent (her only opponent, a 74-year-old Independent socialist senator from Vermont, had repeatedly repudiated the party and only registered as Democrat in November of 2015). This attempt very nearly failed, as she would have lost to said self-described socialist grandfather, but for black voters, who she had previously characterised as 'super-predators', to be 'brought to heel', over her many decades of flip-flopping in the political wind.

Trump meanwhile defeated one of the strongest Republican fields ever assembled (the reality of the electability of tired old names from the 90s was proven when the Republican's equivalent of Clinton, Jeb! Bush was rejected resoundingly in favour of 'any of the above'), while Clinton's single opponent sportingly refused to challenge her on her many dodgy dealings with despotic regimes and shady financiers.

America voted for change in the shape of Barack Hussein Obama in 2008, and they will vote for change in the shape of Donald Trump in 2016. Americans (outside of the superrich) have been getting poorer or stagnating for DECADES, and Hillary Clinton's message - 'everything is fine, vote for me for more of the same' is not going to resonate with voters who in recent polls said, 60% to 26% that America is on the WRONG track (and that's in spite of their approval of Barack Obama, whose ratings reflect the fact that he a super-charismatic rockstar beloved around the world (there will be no posters of Hillary Clinton in toddy shops in Africa, or tours offered of childhood neighborhoods)).

Trump's genius for communication will destroy Hillary's back office law clerk flim-flam, and having destroyed a field of seventeen candidates from an initial position of 1% in the polls despite constant attacks on him (which only made him more popular), he now has six months and a billion dollars or so to focus on just one, deeply unpopular and unattractive candidate.

mathanxiety · 07/05/2016 08:33

I am nodding at several of Claig's remarks here. I do not share the breathless optimism, but there are some serious insights.

Trump intends to bring in millions of voters who have never voted before, people who had given up on the rigged system.
I think this has already happened to some extent. I suspect many voters who never voted before in primaries voted this time. It is interesting to note that Cruz, though now an also ran, was the second place finisher. He is a completely repugnant, unreconstructed Know Nothing and rabidly right wing nutjob, and he ran a close race.

It's important to remember that the end result of the primaries in terms of delegate count is not necessarily a reflection of the raw numbers who voted for the candidates. Some states are caucuses, some allocate delegates proportionally according to the votes cast, and some are winner take all states. The winner take all states tend to skew the picture because a candidate who gets 51% of the vote gets 100% of the delegates. However, there has been a lopsided aspect to many of the victories that indicates real feeling on the part of voters.

The same can be said of Bernie Sanders' victories. Voters are turning against 'politics as usual' here. I wonder if many of the Bernie voters will still be around in November to support Hillary. This is the big question for the Democrats.

It would be interesting to see if there are states where Trump and Sanders both won big, and what the outcomes there will be in November.

Trump is not a traditional conservative, as Newt Gingrich said on Fox last night. Newt said "he is a businessman, who is anti political correctness, anti bureaucracy and anti free trade deals" and anti foreign entanglement and that is as good as it gets for now
Gingrich is a shill is being used by the GOP HQ organisation to backtrack as fast as it can, and to try to create an impression that the GOP is hep to the new reality and always was. His remarks must be seen in the context of a party swallowing humble pie and trying to put the bravest possible face on things. 'Trump is not a traditional conservative' scores very high on the BSometer. Trump really is not a conservative at all. He's an opportunist.

He massages the bruised egos of powerless white males; 'Make America Great Again' appeals very personally to those whose personal identity is wrapped up in the image of American greatness they learned in elementary school social studies class. That formative experience took place in the context of the Cold War, so socialism even the American variety and definitely communism are not options for them. The people who vote for Trump are I suspect people who have never applied for passports with the intention of travelling abroad and broadening their horizons. Hence Trump's profession of love for 'the poorly educated.'

The Bushes are frightened of Trump. Trump said in a live debate that George W Bush knew that there weren't any weapons of mass distruction and that he lied. Trump has also said that he wants the 28 redacted pages of the 911 report opened up and he wants to possibly reopen the investigation into what went on on 911. The Bushes don't know how far Trump will go and what he will do. That is one reason why one faction of the senior Establishment of the Republican party is so frightened of Trump.
This rhetoric has a huge appeal for the hacked off who found themselves facing foreclosure after their years of support for the Bush wars, or who came home from war to minimum wage jobs in Walmart. It also appeals to those working three or four jobs, unionised and outside of unions, who are very squeezed and who see headlines telling of 1% of the population controlling their fate.

The Establishment is stunned that people who would be traditionally willing to vote for whatever candidate they threw at them have broken rank, and are now an unknown force that can't be taken for granted. Therefore to a certain extent, I think Trump may have climbed aboard the tiger's back. This is not unprecedented in the GOP certainly the party did the same when it encouraged the rise of the Tea Party, hoping to be able to control it. It should now be clear that this thing has a momentum of its own it's Pandora's box really -- but I don't know if Trump can appreciate that.

"The party of Lincoln is in ruins. A minority of its primary voters have torched its founders’ legacy by voting for a man who combines old-school Democratic ideology, a bizarre form of hyper-violent isolationism, fringe conspiracy theories, and serial lies" National Review
The NR is partly correct here.
Trump in some ways hearkens back to nineteenth and even eighteenth century figures. Andrew Jackson perhaps, the uncouth, dyslexic, plain talking outsider -- there are articles to that effect. A lot of this sort of talk is hot air that may be designed to place Trump in a respectable (historical) perspective and thus declaw him. The articles cloak the sentiments he brays in respectability. They gloss over the modern context of the phenomenon and seek to ignore the emotion that is present. Trump and his themes didn't arise in a vacuum. The ugliness in the American tradition needs more recent dots to join up, imo. The dots will not be supplied by the National Review.

The cloak of Lincoln sits uneasily on the party of Richard Nixon, Nixon being the cynical author of the Southern Strategy, the candidate of the 'silent majority'. There is a lot of Nixon and Lee Atwater in Trump, in the domestic approach anyway, though the bile is not directed at African Americans and it is not veiled in any way. Here, the scapegoats are hispanics and Muslims. Again, it's the openness of the ugliness that stands out. The ugliness itself is nothing new.

Trump is a bullshitter to some extent and his grasp on policy is not all that great, but his core direction is clear
I think that is true. He is the master of personal branding after all.
He has melded his brand tough, maverick, crude, crass, macho with a rich seam of discontent that was ready to explode. Clearly voters have identified with what he is selling, and also with how he is presenting himself. Clearly many voters, around here anyway, are closet Trump supporters, but there are places where Sanders supporters are closeted too. There are many people who do not feel represented by the likes of the Bush family or Mitt Romney. Or Hillary Clinton for that matter. They hear the deafening sucking sound of jobs going to China and they are not apologising to anyone for being crude and rude and angry.

Trump is not about "white power". Trump has black pastors who have endorsed him, Ben Carson who has endorsed him, Mike Tyosn who has endorsed him, I think Don King likes him etc etc and the African-American Stump for Trump sisters are his biggest fans.
The "white power" smears are part of the left wing tactic, along with the protests, to try and paint Trump as a violent racist. Registered Democrats like Geraldo who have known Trump for years say that he is nothing like that and Trump was friends with Hillary and donated to Democrats for years.
I don't fully agree he is not a white power demagogue. He tripped badly over the KKK incident. Yes he has fans among African American voters, many of whom share a strong sense of national pride. However, 'left-behind-whites' are the sort of people white power groups appeal to and they are the people Donald Trump appeals to also.

The 'old school Democrat' thing comes in here. Old school Democrats were racists (think George Wallace). I don't think Trump respects or values anything but money and machismo. I think this resonates among people who are misogynists who think 'social issues' means women not knowing their place, and who like to identify with a rich, white man who doesn't take orders from anyone. There are plenty of poorly educated white men in the US who resent having a black female boss whom they may suspect only got into university because of affirmative action.

I don't think he cares one way or another about abortion, gay rights, or any other social issue. I think the religious right may well stay home in November unless he finds some way to convince that bloc he really is a conservative. He isn't relying on financial contributions from any particular religious right interest group so he can be his own man in these areas.

Wrt foreign policy, I personally question the value of NATO against middle eastern terror and turmoil. I do not think its remit extends that far for starters, and secondly it is not the subtle force that a struggle against terror requires. It was conceived and remains a 'defensive' force whose raison d'etre was the Soviet Union. I question whether a threat from the Russian Federation exists. I have a suspicion that that is mainly hype. I know the defense industry likes to see tanks and missile launching systems and sophisticated early detection systems rolling off the assembly lines, but I question the value for money involved. Russia has nothing to gain from unfriendliness towards Europe and Europe has nothing to gain from mutual antagonism.

I actually think that despite all the whining from Washington, the Obama administration was relieved to see the Russian intervention in Syria. Russia effectively did the job NATO might be doing and the job the US won't do because it would involve the prospect of American casualties. Russia isn't shy of associating with the likes of Assad.

I would sooner chew off my right arm than vote Republican, and would not vote for Trump, but I am not sure if I would vote for Hillary Clinton either. I think she was a disaster as Sec of State and not because the US Embassy in Libya was left vulnerable and was attacked. The State Department under her watch incited revolution in the middle east that it had no hope whatsoever of managing. There was a strange mix of American hubris and a Disneyesque version of 'how foreign affairs work' at play under her leadership, and a very troubling lack of attention to detail -- imo if you want to start revolutions you need to plan on finishing them. What happened was massive destabilisation all over North Africa and the ME and ISIS stepped into the vacuum created by the rhetoric of the US. The word of the US is worth nothing in that region since they abandoned Mubarak, who had been a staunch ally.

The EU -- his comments on Brexit are meant for a domestic audience. They are designed to focus voter attention on immigration and the message is that immigration has been disastrous for Europeans and the same goes for America.

claig · 07/05/2016 08:36

Frank Luntz was on Fox last night and made a good point. He said

"Clinton's been running ads. They're afraid of Donald Trump, they're afriad of this head to head matchup because Trump is so candid, you never know what he's going to say, he's unpredictable and that's what makes it so tough. Hillary Clinton is the most inauthentic, the most scripted candidate of any that I've seen in the last 30 years. She does not know how to debate Donald Trump and if she runs the same traditional campaign she ran against Bernie Sanders, talking from teleprompters, using the same lines speech after speech, having no sense of where she really is, her heart and her soul, she will get defeated"

It is going to be a battle between an unpopular wonk versus a loveable rogue, a humourless professional politician versus a comic reality TV star, a scripted, teleprompted spinner versus a natural, teleprompter-free showman.

On top of that, Bill Clinton signed NAFTA and Hillary is for NAFTA and TPP and the overthrow of Gaddafi etc and Trump is the total outsider who has clean hands and says a plague on all your houses.

It's no contest. That is why al lmanner of dirty tricks will have to be used to try and stop Trump, but Trump has some of the most experienced, hardball, lifelong operatives and dirty tricksters on his side too. They won't outsmart Trump, he is street smart from New York. He is a winner, America is going to win again, and the Democrats, after 8 years of Obama, are going to lose particularly as they have one of the most unlikeable, professional politicians, who is struggling to beat Bernie without the help of super delegates on their ticket.

claig · 07/05/2016 08:45

'Gingrich is a shill is being used by the GOP HQ organisation to backtrack as fast as it can, and to try to create an impression that the GOP is hep to the new reality and always was. His remarks must be seen in the context of a party swallowing humble pie and trying to put the bravest possible face on things. '

I don't know enough about him. I half remember him from years ago when he shut down the government etc and at the time I didn't pay much attention and I got the impression he may have been just another actor and phony politician. But this election, I have been paying attention, and what he says makes a lot of sense. However, the other day, I heard some good US commentators say that it would be a great mistake for Trump to pick Gingrich as VP because Gingrich is in the pockets of other forces. I don't know, but he certainly sounds good on TV.

claig · 07/05/2016 08:52

'Make America Great Again' appeals very personally to those whose personal identity is wrapped up in the image of American greatness they learned in elementary school social studies class'

Living standards have not risen for ordinary people for over 20 years, as Trump says, they are earning less in real terms than they were 20 years ago and they are working two or three jobs. Millions of jobs are being lost to Mexico and China due to the Establishment free trade deals. As Van Jones, an adviser to Obama says, Trump says he is going to live in Michigan, he is going to go into some of the poorer black communities and say "you are poor, I am rich, give me achance, I am going to bring the jobs back". Trump offers real hope and change.

Trump was in West Virginia at a rally the other night and there were miners in their hats behind him on stage and Trump said

"We're going to reopen the mines, we're going to get the miners back working. Oh, these people, what they have done!"

Trump cares nothing about "these people" (the political class in Washington, K Street and Wall Street and all the fat cats), he is going to change everthing "they have done" and he is fearless about it which is why they are all united in fear against him.

mathanxiety · 07/05/2016 09:00

He used to be the Speaker of the House of Representatives and he ran in the last GOP primaries against Mitt Romney. He presided over the Republican recovery of the House in 1994. Mortal enemy of the Clintons.

He may well be the VP pick, though he might also end up as chief of staff. The National Review has anointed him VP and has started calling the Trump candidacy a 'Republican Revolution' in the making, not the hijacking of the party by someone they all held their noses at. The mind boggles.

Mistigri · 07/05/2016 09:01

mathanxiety what an interesting post.

Trump intends to bring in millions of voters who have never voted before, people who had given up on the rigged system.
I think this has already happened to some extent. I suspect many voters who never voted before in primaries voted this time.

This was at least partly true in the primaires, because turnout is typically low, and because it's possible for independents to switch parties in some states.

However, some of the "extra" Trump votes may not be first time primary voters - they may simply be independents who voted in the Dem primary in 2008 (when the Dems had a similar surge in participation due to a competitive primary and a divisive candidate).

I'm not sure that this observation translates to a GE though. We know which groups have the lowest levels of political participation in elections, and they are not Trump's core middle aged white voters, who may hold their nose when voting, but by and large do vote. These people may be far more politically engaged this time round, but they still only get one vote in the general.

mathanxiety · 07/05/2016 09:05

Living standards have not risen for ordinary people for over 20 years, as Trump says, they are earning less in real terms than they were 20 years ago and they are working two or three jobs. Millions of jobs are being lost to Mexico and China due to the Establishment free trade deals

Ordinary people are voting in their hundreds of thousands for Bernie Sanders too, an avowedly Socialist candidate. Only those whose curiosity about the world was satisfied by 4th grade social studies class and who would prefer to be dead than red are looking at things from Trump's pov.

Mistigri · 07/05/2016 09:07

How on earth can you sell Gingrich as an anti-establishment candidate? It is hard to think of an American politician who is simultaneously so establishment, and so entirely self-interested in everything he does.

It may not matter though. Claig has demonstrated that many Trump supporters are so politically unaware that they have barely heard of one of the best-known "establishment" Republicans of the modern era.

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