Junior Doctors Strike

[Lanchester]

Do the Junior Doctors seriously think that they are still
respected for always putting the interest of their individual patient first?

My brother is a junior doctor and doesn't support withdrawing emergency cover because he thinks it conflicts with his promise to "do no harm". However, he is seriously considering leaving medicine and the NHS because he doesn't think it is currently safe for patients, and if Hunt gets his way, it will be a whole lot worse.

I do support the junior doctors. Next it's the consultant contract and then nurses. They have to stand firm or we won't have an NHS left soon.

Sorry for double post!

If there is a lack of doctors in the NHS it is largely because staff costs and expectations of future pension entitlements have spiralled, and therefore less doctors can be afforded.
At some point the government has to point out that patients are not getting as good a service as in comparable countries.
It is the governments DUTY to do that.
The NHS is becoming an organisation run by the staff for the staff BUT at the financial and health outcomes expense of all citizens.
The BMA are behaving like spoilt young adults.
Jeremy Hunt is doing his duty for the population.
Lets all support Jeremy.
Three cheers for Jeremy Hunt
Hooray, Hooray, Hooray for Jeremy Hunt !
(and I am not even a Tory voter)

Haven't RTFT
But came on to say. I'm working for free for the next two days to cover the strike. As are many consultant colleagues.
We support the juniors in this unprecedented action.
As an aside
In the UK there is always an anaesthetist in theatre. In some places physicians assistants may be used but they are overseen by a consultant.

roseanddagger there's an indefinite peaceful protest outside the DoH at Whitehall where I'm sure your support will be very welcome.

mountaintoclimb yes, they're losing out on pay, and have already lost pay. There are various hardship funds being set up, but it's unrealistic that they would be able to support everyone who needed help.

That DT article is really interesting. The 'JD' who wrote it only has provisional GMC registration and is apparently working in Antrim, which would be unaffected by the new contract. He's also held roles in the past at the FMLM and works for a consultancy firm currently. He's about as far removed from your average JD as you can get. Without outing myself, I have exposure to a lot of doctors. I have been contacted many times since September asking for someone to speak against the contract, against IA, and I've never been able to find anyone, neither have the mainstream media. I think it's really interesting that this bloke suddenly puts his head above the parapet on the day before a strike.

The JD contract is about much more than Saturday pay, but well done for latching on to Jezza's soundbite, exactly as designed. There is a recruitment crisis and it's already worsening. In February the UK Foundation Programme Office said the foundation programme (the jobs for graduating medical students) was oversubscribed, ie there were more applicants than posts. This month they're having to run a Round 2 of recruitment, including recruiting in overseas doctors because there are vacancies - seemingly because the medical students haven't taken up the foundation jobs. Fill rate data for specialty training posts (appointment is 2 years and 4 years post graduation) has been embargoed and there are all sorts of FoI requests floating around about the number of available posts changing (to make the fill rates look better). To provide a 7-day NHS, which is what Jeremy's manifesto says he has to do, we need more doctors, or to pay the existing ones appropriately for the extra work they do. We are losing doctors. Rota gaps are already causing patient safety issues, worsened by Jeremy's locum pay cap, where locums get paid the equivalent of a substantive post but don't get any paid holiday, study leave, maternity leave, sick pay, job security etc etc.

So yes, I support the JD strike.

If you're seriously ill today, go to hospital. JD roles are being covered by consultants.

Oh dear Lanchester, you talk such total bollocks it's obvious that you don't understand the issues. Never mind, I know it's quite complicated.

How can future pension entitlements have spiralled when eight years ago the final salary scheme was closed to new starters, more recently people on the final salary scheme have been forced over to the new career average scheme. Plus employee contributions have risen significantly.

But yes, you keep telling yourself that if it fits in with your little story.

All that '3 cheers for Jeremy' cobblers sounds unsurprisingly goady, Lanchester. Are you Jeremy's mum? Or an intern at Tory HQ? It was also rather patronising TBH.

Shes just being a goady fucker. Thankfully her general dimness and lack of understanding shines through making her a bit laughable.

For the sake of completeness, I do think we have to consider the response to Mark Porter's letter which is here www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/518985/1030682_-_Dr_Mark_Porter_2nd_letter.pdf

As I've said, I support junior doctors but I do not agree with withdrawing emergency cover etc and I do believe that currently this is a strike regarding pay. I've not seen the material/updates that the BMA are providing members with but these should make it clear

WTF...is Simon
Your post is condescending ignorant and arrogant
....self interest seems to seep out of your every utterance.
Sounds like you may be an 'old school' consultant, or at least imbued with their unshakeable self confidence - even in the face of inconvenient facts.
But now you have descended to DISinformation.
If you are half as well informed as you claim to be, you will know that even the current pension arrangements for medical staff are outlandishly generous compared to those earned by the vast majority of the population - who are expected to fund the greatest part of your NHS pensions.
Yet you are happy to defend your unaffordable working conditions through disinformation.
Not nice!

lanchester - I agree, you are being goady. You can still disagree and remain polite

PS - I am not a consultant, old school or not!

This isn't about money. If the health service was privatised we would earn more. It we wanted more money we'd be backing Hunt in his bid to destroy the NHS...

Yep.
I fully support the junior doctors. I don't know anyone who doesn't.

This last post from you, OP...

Jeremy Hunt is doing his duty for the population.
Lets all support Jeremy.
Three cheers for Jeremy Hunt
Hooray, Hooray, Hooray for Jeremy Hunt !

....has confirmed for me that you are either monumentally stupid, or a goady fucker.

or JH himself, in which case you are both

What's impolite or goady about saying three cheers for Jeremy Hunt ?
HE ( unlike the BMA Union) is doing his DUTY to provide timely and good quality health care for all - free at the point of delivery.
Many posters on here seem to have a financial self interest motivating their postings.

The same Jeremy who refused to even meet with a single junior doctor
The same Jeremy who has written a book on privatising the NHS

With no new funding I can't see how it's possible to stretch 5 days of elective service over 7
As we already have a 7 day emergency service.

It just doesn't add up

lanchester - Jeremy Hunt is handling this in the most cackhanded way possible and upsetting a bunch of people who are essentially good and decent. Not only that, but he seems entirely oblivious to this which makes it even worse.

I say that as an employment lawyer who has worked with some, er, interesting clients. I've never come across an organisation make such a pig's ear of a contract change.

Are you on glue?

Do you live in space?

Do you read the Daily Mail?

Jeremy Hunt is trying to make the NHS collapse so that he can sell it off ie privatise it. So that we will have an American type system where everyone pays.

He wrote a book on how to do it.

Jeremy Hunt does not care about the NHS.
The NHS staff do.
Jeremy Hunt's plans will endanger millions of patients for years to come. The junior doctors do not want this.

Jeremy Hunt WANTS THE NHS TO FAIL. This is abundantly clear to anyone who knows even half the facts.

Giving staff unworkable contracts is a step in this direction.

You might be a little lonely in your position there, OP.

Three cheers for Jeremy Hunt is definitely not what I am thinking.

Completely agree wellerr Jeremy Hunt wants the NHS to fail.

I fully support the junior doctors. Proud of them.

Yep. But first, he wants to make the NHS so shit that when he suggests bringing in private doctors to improve services, everyone goes 'oh yes please!'

But luckily, most people aren't proving as gullible as he'd hoped.

That's why I fully support the JD's action, and I hope that nurses and midwives follow suit when it's their turn.

This makes my blood boil. If these changes go through junior doctors will leave in their droves.

I speak as someone involved in the training of junior doctors in Emergency Medicine and married to an A&E consultant. It is absolutely not just about pay. The level of moral among doctors is so low. Getting shifts covered at safe levels now is a juggling act who knows what the future holds. He and his colleagues are covering their shifts during the strike as they support it. If these changes are forced through Drs will leave in even bigger numbers.

Ouch44
Well their morals do seem lower than they used to be. Knowingly abandoning patients is hardly good for their own morale either.

Lanchester, they are not abandoning patients. The patients are being looked after by senior doctors.
It is not about pay. Striking junior doctors are not being paid whilst they're striking, we are not being paid extra to cover them whilst they strike and we are not asking for a pay rise, we just don't want a pay cut. Not because we are greedy but because if our pay is cut and our hours made even more unpredictable than they already are, people will be forced to leave medicine as they can no longer pay their mortgages or afford child care

There is a fundamental economic issue with this strike.

The NHS is a monopsony buyer That is they are the dominant and in some cases (A&E) the only buyer for the servce that junior Drs provide.

Meanwhile the junor Drs have trained in highly specialised areas for years so they cannot easily find an alternative career.

What Jeremy Hunt is attemting to do for short term gain is exploit the monopsony position of the NHS and the specilaised nature of junior Dr training.

Add to that the fact that junior Drs are by their very nature dedicated to their job as a vocation and in fact duty bound to 'do no harm,' and that eaves them in a very weak baragaining position.

What wil happen n teh ong run though is it will become increasingly difficult to recruit and many junior Drs will leave the NHS.

The impact will be felt over the next decade as increasingly there will be a shortage of junior Drs. Jeremy Hunt will have left office by then. What will then happen is desperate patients will eventually be forced to pay for treatment. Some junior Drs will remain in the NHS but working as locums at much greater cost to the NHS. It really is a very short sighted policy that Hunt is trying to implement.

Nurse pay went through the same cycle with the full cost of nurse cover being increased by heavy use of nurses that cme in through agencies. Same will happen with Drs.

No savings will be made but parts of the NHS cover will be quasi privatised and wealthy patients will pay for health care. Poorer patients will get poor or no health care.

Lanchester I'm not any sort of Dr. Nor am I married to one or indeed related to one. So please stop with the incorrect assumptions. It's possible to just be an interested person who passionately wants the nhs to succeed rather than be killed off by idiots like HUnt.