Junior Doctors Strike

[Lanchester]

Do the Junior Doctors seriously think that they are still
respected for always putting the interest of their individual patient first?

How many times has it been said "the government is not listening to the experts". How many professions given a voice in the media would say the same... teachers, social care workers, firefighters, policemen, steel workers, prison wardens, bus drivers, pilots, farmers, ambulance drivers, and on and on. They can and do claim they are overworked and under paid, resources are stretched, hours are to long, work life balance is unfair, pension is too small, protections aren't big enough and people's lives are at stake if we don't listen to the experts, why is no one listening to the experts.

But when it comes to running the country, there isn't a pot of infinite resources, the country is spending money we don't have. And the public want, demand more, demand better. Running the country, trying to make it a better place its an almost impossible conundrum. The experts never have to answer for anyone else, they are a special interest group that never have to actually raise the money they want to spend, never have to specify who will lose out so doctors with a job for life and the majority of their very expensive training paid for, get what the experts say they should.

No one chooses to strike, ummmm YES you do.

I give up. I have posted objective evidence and subjective experience, with minimal engagement from others. Good luck to those who are carrying on. As a last action, here is the link the the doctors and dentists pay review reports, go anyone who might be interested in what the 'experts'recommended.
www.gov.uk/government/organisations/review-body-on-doctors-and-dentists-remuneration

Shezadoc 08:59 and 09:03

Posting links can be very useful but you don't seem to be reading them properly before you post them

Here us an extract from your most recent link:
"The increase in spending announced in the 2015 Spending Review will see the NHS budget increase to £133.1 billion by 2020/21. This amounts to a real increase of £4.5 billion. Nearly half this amount is earmarked for 2016/17, leaving the remaining increase spread over the next four years."

So a Real (I.e. AFTER extra money to offset inflation) increase of 4.5 thousand million pounds.
Elsewhere in your link it says that the NHS is almost entirely funded by NI and Tax.
Average salary in the UK is what ? Maybe 25,000 ?

And of course many people are on. . minimum wage of what ? 14,000 per year ?
But they have the satisfaction of knowing that they too pay all their regressive taxes like VAT etc as well as whatever income tax they can afford - to help fund our 'world class' doctors and to pay them well because they say they are 'despairing' at their work life balance.

I just can't anymore. You are deliberately missing the point. The real terms increase is set off by efficiency savings which have never been achieved by any health system, ever. And we still pay less in terms of gdp than many other European countries. This money is to stand still, not to improve services or find a seveb day NHS (it was promised before the seven day NHS became a promise). This includes pay for all health professionals and others within the NHS, and once again, everyone pays tax and ni. Doctors are not asking for a pay rise, they are asking not to be paid less, and to have rotas that make sense in terms of staying safe for themselves and their patients.
This will affect all within the NHS if imposed, including those on minimum wage (who are greater in number than juniors).

Rising NHS costs are mainly to do with an ageing population, with many elderly patients having multiple diagnoses of chronic illnesses.

Lanchester are you seriously suggesting that doctors should be paid minimum wage? Where would you recruit these doctors?

I think some people just dont want to understand.

When they have to pay to see a private doctor because their child has the snuffles, or they have broken their hip and cant afford a hip replacement, that is when they will think fondly of the NHS and wonder how they could have got it so wrong. In the long long term, current doctors will survive, we are highly trained and quite intelligent with an incredible work ethic. We can transfer our skills. Its the patients who wont be.

And of course many people are on. . minimum wage of what ? 14,000 per year ?
But they have the satisfaction of knowing that they too pay all their regressive taxes like VAT etc as well as whatever income tax they can afford - to help fund our 'world class' doctors and to pay them well.

Sorry for the double post

It's simple supply and demand, isn't it? Why would anyone get into massive debt and slog their way through a medical degree simply to work 7 days a week, not see their families and earn a low wage, when they can get earn more with a better quality of life in another career?

And, if they have worked their way through a medical degree and now have a family to support, why would they continue to work at subsistence wages when they can go abroad or work in the private sector for much more?

Mistigri Thu 28-Apr-16 09:44:44
"are you seriously suggesting that doctors should be paid minimum wage? "

Short answer: No

Longer answer: Why don't you read what people are actually saying rather than making out they said something they didn't say just so you can ridicule it?

I think those sums need to be given to an economist to shine a light on that.

Of course jds are not paid what they would be elsewhere if the state has subsidised their education. Entitled, much?

I think op is unwilling to hear the facts, and just wants to continue being goady, so I will leave this thread, like shezadoc

Op, you may be unwilling to listen to reason at the moment, but if you or a family member becomes sick under the new contract it is likely to affect you when there is poor staffing on the weekdays to allow for weekend elective work, and you see a doctor who may be too exhausted to give you the best care.

Lanchester then what is your point? Why is the minimum or average wage relevant in any way to a discussion about doctors' salaries? It is perfectly obvious that if you wish to recruit highly-trained people who have skills that are in short supply, then you cannot pay them an average wage. How much do you think doctors should earn, and how would you recruit cheap doctors?

Bearing in mind that the junior doctors would be prepared to stick with the current contract ie they are not seeking a pay rise in the first place.

A final point in reply to some other posters: as a doctor trained in the UK, I do actually believe it is right I work in the NHS. However this would not be possible under the new contract as I would be working more hours, which are increasingly erratic, for less money. I wouldn't be able to afford childcare. This contract will cost a great deal in terms of the loss of trained doctors, who are already seeking employment abroad or changing careers due to the threat of imposition.

I actually agree that doctors who trained here and paid home fees should work for the NHS for a set period, but only if the training contract is fair and equitable. This contract discriminates against mothers, according to the government's own equality assessment.

I find it very sad that after 6 years in university, and coming up to 2 years training in the NHS, I may no longer be able to afford to work as a doctor.

I still haven't heard any doctor explain who or what they will take the money off to fund their pay rise? I am not saying they don't deserve it, I am just saying there are a lot of deserving people who work very hard for less money and the country is running on debt.

The doctors have a point but need to be clear about what they are striking about, "not hide behind emotional rhetoric,"

Thanks Funny.

There is an arrogance problem too. Anyone past the age of twenty who is still focussed on the fact that they got really good A Levels is in a bubble. Anyone comparing their salary to that of a fortune 500 director or any city law partner is in a bubble.
But anyone who does that then doesn't listen when things are explained? Well, that's entitlement, and there is a heavy dose of it in medicine (unsurprisingly, since they are asked to square the circle of priestly selflessness with executive salary)

There seems to be a lot of identity confusion and I much prefer reading straightforward posts saying "yes my patients are important but my kids are more important" than those saying "I think just of my patients. This is for you".

I guess that's because they're not asking for a pay rise, urbanfox.

As has been repeated many times in this thread.

AugustaFinkNottle Thu 28-Apr-16 10:06:26
"It's simple supply and demand, isn't it? Why would anyone get into massive debt and slog their way through a medical degree simply to work 7 days a week, not see their families and earn a low wage, when they can get earn more with a better quality of life in another career? "

Answer:
Yes it is supply and demand.
the population (through the government) are saying that they are no longer willing to supply the excessive expectations and demands of UK Doctors.

ALSO part of the quality of life of being a doctor is not financial. It is being able to help patients. If a person feels they would have a better quality of life doing something else then they should probably go and do that.
There seems to be a big issue her about how selection should be made to medical schools though.
At the moment some people age 17/18 (quite understandably) don't know what they want to do really, so they do what they think is prestigious and they apply for Law or Medicine or PPE or whatever.
Later they find that they really wanted to be a television presenter nor playwright or something else.
But discovering their mistake after years of medical school training is very expensive and also they have taken up a place that could have been used to train a person who actually was more dedicated to working as a doctor.
Therefore medical school admissions need to use additional assesment criteria.
Perhaps a prospective medic should have to have worked in a health care facility for one year in some full time capacity - as an additional FIRST YEAR of the medical degree. They would then know better whether they would prefer to be a doctor or a banker perhaps.

"And, if they have worked their way through a medical degree and now have a family to support, why would they continue to work at subsistence wages when they can go abroad or work in the private sector for much more?"

Answer:
Doctors are much better paid than most graduates.
So if doctors are just having to scrape along "at subsistence wages"
how do they think that the rest of society is coping, and how willing do they think people are to fund their salary demands?

The Beatles song was not supposed to be taken literally as a guide to life.
It was surely a warning about love of money.

The best things in life are free
But you can keep them for the birds and bees
Now give me money
That's what I want
That's what I want, yeah
That's what I want

I fully support the junior doctors and I amazed at the misinformation that some people believe. It is difficult to know where to start.

a few points

1. the doctors never asked for a pay rise. The new contract is not giving them a pay rise. There is some limited pay protection but the junior doctors in a few years will be facing a cut.

2. there is a recruitment crisis. Multiple specialities are understaffed with massive rota gaps.
   If even a small percentage of junior doctors leave the NHS is at serious risk of collapse

3. while it is deeply upsetting that some people have had operations cancelled this is a fraction of the cancellations that occur each winter due to an underfunded health and social care system.

4. junior doctors are not leaving emergency care patients at risk! The patients will get the best care they ever could by consultants and specialist trust registrars! I would be more concerned about the chronic staff shortages when a and e departments are short staffed and reliant on junior locums than when 10 consultants are there!

They are better paid than "most graduates".

But most graduates do not have straight A* results, and most graduates do not complete a 5 year initial training followed by another 10-15 year period of compulsory, on the job training. Most graduate roles do not involve making potentially life-and-death decisions after a 12+ hour shift.

If you compare doctors with their peers - the brightest students, who have completed post-graduate professional qualifications - then you will find that doctors' salaries are rather modest. I work in industry and we would struggle to recruit candidates of the right calibre (mainly PhDs) if we used the junior doctors' pay scale.

You can't stretch a demoralised and overworked 5 day workforce further over 7 days for less / possibly same pay. I can't believe any one would be happy if that happened in their job

Junior doctors already work weekends- often several in a row, 12 days in a row and very unsociable shifts.

It is not as simple as saying shop assistants work Saturdays for no more pay.

They get a salary that reflects the degree of antisocial hours they do. The remaining weekend or two they have a month to see their kids/ family are to them priceless and most are not willing to give them up without sig remuneration and certainly not for a cut!!

Yes it is supply and demand.
the population (through the government) are saying that they are no longer willing to supply the excessive expectations and demands of UK Doctors.

IF that is what the population want, fine. They will then have to get used to the fact that either waiting lists and queues in A&E get even longer, or they will have to pay and go privately.

But it is pretty clear that that is not what the population wants, and the government does not represent what the population wants. And the trouble is that it is not members of this government that will suffer, because they will certainly get private medical care.

ALSO part of the quality of life of being a doctor is not financial. It is being able to help patients. If a person feels they would have a better quality of life doing something else then they should probably go and do that.

The problem with that is that a nice warm glow from helping patients doesn't pay the mortgage, and it doesn't give much quality of life to a doctor's family if they never see her. And if doctors do go and do something else then it is the patients who will suffer.