Junior Doctors Strike

[Lanchester]

Do the Junior Doctors seriously think that they are still
respected for always putting the interest of their individual patient first?

I fully support the junior doctors.
They are doing it to protect patients. They can be expected to spread themselves so thinly. We can't have a seven day routine NHS without all the other ancillary services and the government can't afford that.
I know the strike isn't about money BUT I expect them to be well paid. They do a very very hard job. They need to be intelligent, quick witted, good under stress, good at making decisions in an emergency, incredibly knowledgable, leaders, teachers, compassionate, calm etc etc and not everyone could do the job. They need a very good salary to attract good people to do a hard job. The government seem to be trying to reduce their position to that of less skilled/qualified workers. They are highl skilled and the people that can do that job are few and far between. They should be supprted and rewarded appropriately.
Politicians seem to be very good at rewarding themselves and supporting themselves.

would like to make it clear the the NHS is amazing and absolutely should not be underfunded ever- maybe it would help if Starbucks paid their taxes - and we should make sure HC staff trained here don't feel that emigration is their best option....

BUT
Personally I reckon this strike has more to do with a certain sense of superiority among a group who have been very successful all their lives, and, I've no doubt, worked very hard to get there. Junior docs really aren't doing themselves any favours by demanding more money than every other public worker covering Saturdays, when a consultant's post will eventually put them in the top 2% of earners. Get over yourselves. No pain, no gain and whatnot.

I think it would help to have free hospital accommodation and proper meals and laundry facilities for junior doctors on call like in the old days. A salary would then go further.

The govt could stop the sale of hospitals to developers to make luxury flats and convert the sites into accommodation for doctors and nurses instead.

Current junior doctors are misusing 'save our nhs' and 'we are one profession' . They need to be honest that they are striking for a better salary for themselves. Not for the nurses or any other part of the nhs.

What isn't made clear or what people don't get is that junior Drs are not asking for a payrise, hpjeremy hunt is imposing a pay cut.

Of course the current junior docs would probably moan at living in hospital accommodation even if free.
One of the problems is that though Medical students get nhs bursaries, these no longer cover the costs of accommodation and living while studying. Junior doctors are likely to be paying off large student debt.

Well if people don't get that himalayanrock its because the junior docs haven't made it clear to the people.

Lougle

Anyway my point is that the nhs is not 'one profession', and arguably Jeremy Hunt's position is more likely to 'save' the nhs. The doctors have a point but need to be clear about what they are striking about, not hide behind emotional rhetoric,

lanchester are you Jeremy Hunt?

You're points are so ridiculous that they are almost a parody of the secretary of state for health.

Going through them one by one:

1) increase efficiency of staff work methods - e.g. better protocols
We have plenty of protocols already, nothing wrong with them. If anything we have too many protocols which waste time.
2) get staff to work more quickly
As a doctor I already work quickly, so do my colleagues. We often work without eating or even time to pee on an on call shift, and stay hours past our finish time. Rushing and overworking a doctor can have tragic consequences too. Would you want to see a doctor who was too tired or rushed to give you the best care?
3) make sickness benefits less generous so as to reduce (currently high) sickness levels
Doctors actually have very low levels of sickness, around 2-3 days per year average, which is much lower than other hcps. Doctors often don't like to let their patients down when they are sick and still come into work, which isn't safe either.
*4) INCREASE THE NUMBER OF NHS STAFF (already 1.3million though) by

• reducing staff salaries (or by points 5 through 10 below)

so that more staff can be employed at the same overall cost,

• or by INCREASING TAXATION

so that more staff can be employed at the same or raised overall cost, *

How are we going to train all these extra staff? Certainly there is very little capacity to train extra medical students. Also cutting pay will mean more doctors will move abroad/change career, which is a waste of the cost of training them. This would be a false economy.

5) Reduce paid study leave and any unnecessary travel / secondments etc.

We have a pitiful study budget as a trainee, meaning most don't take much study leave, as we have to pay out of our own pocket for very expensive courses. Travel I have never been paid for.
6) reduce the generous parental leave to uk industry standards
The parental leave available is less than everyone I know in the private sector. What industry standard are you referring to?

8) make part time working less readily agreed to and less affordable for staff
It is already 'less readily agreed to'. Only doctors who have childcaring responsibilities/are a carer/sick can generally work part time. If stopped many would simply have to find another career. Is this what you want? Which of these groups would you want to prevent from being able to work part time?

Pension points deleted as others have already pointed out you are misinformed.

Medical students don't get bursaries - they get huge student loans.

The exception is final year. For the moment. But it'll be going soon, along with the bursaries for other HCPs

funny

I think they are striking for a better salary for themselves isn't quite correct. They're technically striking against something: cut in salary, increase in unsocial hours and a myriad tiny changes to the contract.

But they mostly seem and about govt's misrepresentation of the statistics and science in the disputed "weekend deaths" study. And not happy about NHS cuts either

Have people actually looked at the rota gaps we have already? Without this 7 day NHS lets attack the JD's nonsense? Look on twitter. Theres a hashtag. We cannot staff 5 days let alone 7.

I am saddened to read some posts in this thread but I'm so glad the majority support the junior doctors.

Meiraya the junior docs aren't going on strike because of nhs cuts they are going on strike to improve their own lot. There is no shame in that.

I think it is weasel words to say they are going on strike because of nhs cuts, and all the placards of 'one profession' are something I just don't get. The junior doctors strike wont help the nurses or cleaners. The junior docs are striking to help themselves. I support them. But I have to say that watching them on tv jump up and down chanting 'save our nhs' doesn't do it for me.

The nhs is a much larger thing than the junior doctors and the fact is that accepting the new contract will not destroy the nhs. That doesnt make the new contract any better or less worth opposing as accepting it will help to destroy the quality of life of junior doctors.

The junior doctors strike wont help the nurses or cleaners
If the government can railroad junior doctors it will follow suit with all staff. This is going to set a precedent.

This implementation of the seven day NHS which is completely dependant on the doctors contract has massive implications for the NHS and it's staff.

It's setting us up for a fail because it's promising something we simply cannot deliver with the terms, funds and staffing Hunt has decided upon.

Junior doctors nowadays have a SUPERB quality of life compared to when I qualified. But it because I remember just how unbalanced a life it was that I am totally against retrograde steps. Of course I didn't feel so entitled, I had a free university education and I wanted to give back AND the junior docs the year before I qualified went on strike and doubled our salary.

funny you're accusing me of weasel words I didn't use. I said they're angry and sad about nhs cuts. And about Mr Hunt's dubious ststistics. I stand by that- aren't HCPs allowed emotions?

Plus, they're not trying to improve their lot. They're trying to stop it worsening. Which is a pretty major difference. And in contrast you your post, f they had been trying to improve their existing situation by striking, in my view there would be huge shame in that.

Defending themselves against an attack- somewhat less problematic.

Himalayanrock / Ophelia

I have already said that I support the principal of publicly funded healthcare free at the point of delivery. Perhaps you missed that when you skimmed through the thread.
If you think that equals "hate" you are wrong.

I actually think that the BMA and the junior doctors are now damaging people's trust in the NHS
And it is very offensive for them to treat the rest of the population in a disrespectful manner with obviously disingenuous arguments such as:
If the government restores Saturday overtime apparently the JDs will happily go back to work doing the hours that they said are dangerous for patients. BUT those long hours were supposedly why the JDs were striking to maintain patient safety and opposition to those 'unsafe' long hours was supposedly the main justification for the JDs saying they 'have to very reluctantly strike and withdraw emergency care" in the first place !

Perhaps you might more reasonably find the BMA's dishonesty 'hateful' as it is damaging trust in the medical profession and damaging support for the NHS ?

Hibbledibble - lots of staff are still covered at the moment by earlier versions of the NHS pension scheme. It is true that the 2015 scheme has changed a lot, but it is still a defined benefit scheme with exceptionally good employer (I.e. Taxpayer) contributions.
What is really offensive to private sector workers (I.e. Most taxpayers) is that ignoring the small proportion of obscenely well paid directors etc, most people are on PAYE and cannot afford decent pensions as they missed out on payrises for year after yesr after 2008.
Many are working in companies which have been allowed in the past to raid their company pension funds as the Tories declared that many schemes were 'overfunded', only to find now that the schemes are underfunded ( e.g. Half a billion shortfall in the BHS scheme)

funny what is it you do again, I'm just asking as you saw fit to bring up your free uni fees?

Doctor.
Worked (well) over 90 hours most weeks for decades. Was paid less than a Woolworth's cashier per hour.
I think the plaque saying 'this sign would read better if i hadn't worked a 70 hour week' quite cheering as it was a long road to get to that stage for junior docs in the nhs.

Mortality rates go down when junior doctors strike. Milton Keynes has already told the press that because decisions were not delayed, services during the strike have been better.

Every junior doc I have come across/supervised in the last 5 years has been well paid, got good annual and study leave, good time off for training and worked reasonable hours and 50% of them have been arrogant twats who think they know it all. They don't.

They are, however, intelligent young people who deserve good working conditions and a family life so I support the strike.

funny do you still practice? Consultant or GP? I find it strange that you don't realise the wider implications of this issue.

Golly it has taken me hours to read this thread from start to finish.
What have I concluded? We have one almighty mess that will take the wisdom of Solomon to sort out.
Cant choose Please stop reading so much in the press - it will only stress you out. You sound really conscientious and I am sure your patients value you.
I have been deeply troubled by this strike- hence my wanting to understand more. I was a junior doctor in the late eighties and during my first job ( we were called house officers then) was severely stressed practically to breaking.
Basic working week was 56 hours but every 3 weeks it was 142 hours. Yes it was an on- call system rather than shifts so in theory I could go to bed if it was quiet but invariably I was woken several times in the night for emergency admissions, inpatient less well, cannula needed resiting etc. I would not like to see a return to those days when I was so tired I was unsure how much IV drug I had drawn up so would throw it away & start again.
I went on to a gp training scheme- again horrendous hours in gp work. The trainee( now called gpregistrar) in the practise was given Mondays on-call and weekends were Friday, Sat, Sun so I was continually driving tired to visit ill patients.
I eventually decided that paediatrics was my vocation so I have experienced numerous rota types including shifts.From my p.o.v.conditions actually appeared to be improving. There were times in paeds when I felt badly unsupported.
I have worried about withdrawal of emergency cover because in my day whilst consultants had greater knowledge through experience several were not up to scratch with skilled proceedures ( eg use of intraosseous needle or intubation).
I have also been an inpatient at evening and weekend when there was a skeleton staff & felt my care was sub-optimal & put me at risk - staff were over-stretched.
Whether or not we look at the studies on deaths I think there is too little weekend cover. I think the government have neither thought out or made it clear what a 24/7 nhs is. Do we need elective proceedures at w/e- I am not convinced(yet).
Ideally I think nurses & doctors at junior level should be working 8 hour shifts but we don't have the finances to provide more staff to attain this.

Junior docs must stand firm.

-Change the bma negotiating committee if they aren't upto the job.

-Ditch the 'save our nhs' stance which just simply isn't relevant or true: the nhs survived much worse junior doctors conditions. Indeed arguably a doctor who has seen more patients is a safer doctor.

-Being a junior doctor in a recognised training post is to be a doctor still in training. ie an apprentice. Paid working hours includes substantial time spent every week in professional education. So 3 hours of the 40 hour week is spent being paid to be educated. Doctors in nhs training posts need to compromise on pay, recognising that they are still being trained up.

50% of newly qualified doctors are female and so will be the main carers for their families (children, elderly parents). Jeremy Hunt and his advisers are short sighted in this regard. That said, junior doctors in many specialities have always been offered contracts with weekends/out of hours in the contract. Not just for the service but because it was thought essential to training. If the doctor doesn't want to do out of hours they can go into public health/dermatology etc rather than surgery, cardiology etc.

Graysanalogy you find it strange someone doesnt totally agree with you, perhaps

I still practice. Very much so.

No funny I find it odd that someone who must be educated and experienced in the healthcare system doesn't realise how this will negatively affect themselves and other staff.