Xenia - I found an article which I thought you might find interesting!

[emkana]

I think she has a point, not sure if you agree

Yes, many women can now work these jobs but choose not to for the reasons given. I think the battelground if there is one is at home. Men from April who may want the new paternity leave and women who want it to fighting over who gets to stay home, particularly when they know the one who goes out to work the 12 hour days with difficult clients and makes a fortune has to hand half of it over to the one who had the help at home and spent mornings at the gym and afternoons watching TV whilst the help minds the children etc. if we're talking about men and women on these knids of salaries. Or women who'd like to do the jobs but feel they also have to do everything at home too ( which to my mind means they're idiots to accept that inequality at home).

Personally I find work really interesting and child care and house cleaning generally dull so I am not sure why so many people make those choices. One factor is women tend to marry men slightly older and 4 in 5 earn less than their man - there's a kind of ego/status male issue there and women liking the man to earn more etc I suppose in those couplings so that of course makes the economic decision as to who to stay home more likely to be the woman too. I think Rachel J has a much older husband too - I remember one of her columns writing about how nice it was to be 10 years younger than all their /his friends, a kind of little girl type dynamic a lot of women seem to like in their relationships.

I amn not so sure our daughters will have these choices to give up work however. Their husbands may not let them in the more equal relationships younger people have.

Stepping off as uw says is risky. Plenty of men just disappear or self employed earnings drop to £6k in the year of divorce. You think you trust someone completely and find that was very misplaced. He would never do it to me, we love each other, we trust each other... fine but sadly often women and men are wrong about each other.

No one writes about the fun of work do they? It gets a really bad press. DOn't people like to win, to solve problems, to help people, to be the best at what they do, to get that adrenalin flowing..,...

What was your mother's advice then expat?

"Their husbands may not let them in the more eaqual relations younger people have"

Another stonking self-contradiction from Xenia there

I think you've touched on one of the key points to this debate though, Xenia - no, everybody doesn't like to win. Some people really, actually don't give a fuck about winning for the sake of it.

If there's no assumption mother or father will give up work you have a discussion about it with no presumption the mother will make the career sacrifice. I think that's becoming more normal and also is fairer on men and women who both may want to work or both may want to stay home.

I agree with the work smarter, not harder though... I can mess around on here and work an hour that earns me more than some people earn in a week, isn't that pretty nice? Women seem to court the low paid options? Why is that?

Winning.... isn't it fun at work to win sometimes? They did a survey of MBA graduates. The men all got initial starting salaries above the women in their first jobs. They looked at why. 100% of the men had asked for more money. None of the women had. The women think I am lucky to have this job. The men think this firm is lucky to have me. Are these inherent differences or the way we bring up our children?

Which women and which men think that, Xenia?

I agree with Xenia. It is great to win sometimes.
I was a SAHM for 18 months, and although I loved being with my children I did miss being intellectually challenged, particularly in a competitive situation.
I think some women definately choose not to go for the top jobs, but for those who do there are still obstacles in their way.

Greeny, I think in say 20 years it might not be an option for one partner (husband or wife) to stay home. Husbands might come to terms with equality and might want their wives to go earn some money. I think if I walked in tonight and announced, "I've packed it in I'm going to stay home from now on and you earn all the money", DH would not be impressed. (He would however jump at the excuse to hand me all of the housework and childcare.) Likewise, if DH walked in tonight and said he wasn't going to work anymore, I'd have to knock some sense into him.

Oh, and I think it is important to point out that some men are not overly amitious. I once dated a guy who took a big step back in his career becasue he really wanted to move back to his home town so he could live near his parents becaue he felt they needed him. I think he's a big old mamas boy who lacks ambition. I was not impressed. Fricken 38 year old man who want to go live near mummy. Anyway, there are women and men who don't aspire to get the top job.

no, everybody doesn't like to win. Some people really, actually don't give a fuck about winning for the sake of it.

I couldn't give a fat rat's arse.

NEVER have, either.

Not a competitive bone in my body.

I mean, who cares? Really. In the grand scheme of things.

If it's what tickles your pickle, good on you, but viva la paresse!

I am competitive, but I am sure that is to do with my childhood, which was filled with competition at home with my brother and sisters, and obviously at school.
I think it is a good thing. What's the point of taking part if you can't win?

My dh doesn't want to win. He wants to do the job he enjoys though. I didn't feel quite as strongly about mine, or at least, there were other things I wanted to do as well. I did work after ds was born, full time, and dh stayed at home. But then he found a job he really wanted, so he went back. I found a degree course I wanted to do, so I stopped working. Never, ever, has my dh suggested that childcare is MY responsibility. When we were both working, one dropped ds off at nursery, one picked him up. I didn't take on extra housework responsibilites. We shared them, just like we did before children. I do now, because dh works pretty long hours (although nothing like these lawyers!) and I only study part time. You're only taking a 'risk' by temporarily giving up work if your goal is to lead that particular field. I don't want to be a Headteacher. Dh doesn't want to be CEO. He wants to be an engineer. So there was no risk. Just thinking time.

I think a lot of people like to win. But, winning isn't the only reward at work. The paycheque is a nice perk. If you like your co-workers that can make a big difference. The sense of accomplishment is nice. There are lots of things to like about work. There are few things, in my opinion, to like about housework.

We differ but those differences aren't necessarily gender specific. It's fun to win. It's often fun to resolve things too. It's fun to find solutions. To have a better answer than anyone else. Fun to have the money to buy the freedom from toilet scrubbing. Fun to have the money to do the things you choose to do too let us not forget. Many women marry men who earn a lot with that in mind.

But let's not deride those who think it's fun to win or those who want to stay home and in essence serve and give. I'm generalising very badly actually. So many mothers transfer their competitiveness to the children in a game I've never played - my son walks sooner, my daughter is at kumon maths at 3 etc etc ugh.... my child is prettier, my husband has the bigger Mercedes or penis or salary or whatever.....

Well yes. But you can get the intellectual satisfaction from other pursuits. I do. Possibly more so than I did at work . And I agree I think about the competitive mum thing. I wouldn't want to focus all my energy on my children, and GOd knows I don't focus it on the house...

Oh, and the money thing is only valid for certain jobs. After childcare, our combined wages would not be sufficient to pay for domestic help. In fact, it wouldn't be much different to dh's salary alone. So we would both work full time AND clean the toilets.

And you don't really qualify for my risk category as youve taken time out to study and further your career in that way. I would do the same thing if I could afford it. The risk I was referring to was mums who say decide to stay at home full time, and the fifteen years later husband walks out for pretty young secretary and she is left with three teenagers and no means to support them. Nobody thinks they are going to be there, but as Xenia points out so many people are wrong.

I agree. I love to read and think and write. That's nothing to do with work. I'm lucky I like the work too which involves quite a lot of intellectual challenge and thought. Most people on the planet including mothers don't have any choice about work and they do work. It's only a few on here and elsewhere who don't. My greatgrandmother worked and had 17 children.

'The risk I was referring to was mums who say decide to stay at home full time, and the fifteen years later husband walks out for pretty young secretary and she is left with three teenagers and no means to support them. Nobody thinks they are going to be there, but as Xenia points out so many people are wrong. '

Ah, but see, this is why there are good lawyers like Xenia out there .

uwila, that 38 year old guy sounds like a lovely bloke! Do you really disrespect him for putting his family above his career ambitions?

Is it really only "a few" women who SAHM in this country, as Xenia says?

Xenia's not a family lawyer though, expat.

I think this culture of "my job is my life" is so crap. Why should you not be able to have a really interesting top job as well as a life outside work. It could be your family or it could be watching the BB live feed it doesn't really matter. There are lot of people who don't want to make the sacrifices the top jobs demand of you (and not just the top ones) and I think sadly business are missing out on a lot of really good interesting people because of it.

Yes. My mother and grandmothers worked. DH's mum says she didn't but they were farmers and now they've sold up I think she's realising just how much work she did do. I hope she remembers that when I start work again...

I have always assumed that when the children got older most SAHMs go back to work as the children would be more independent and out of the house. It is quite old fashioned for a woman to be a SAHM indefinately, isn't it? .

Emkana, as far as I know he is still available.

But, he's not a lovely bloke. He's a mama's boy. The funny thing is this is his need, not his mum's. I could say a bad thing about her. She is lovely. But, he just could handle being so far away. Weird.

I remember when I moved the kitchen towel from hanging on the back of the door on the oppositie side of the kitchen from where the sink was, and he moved it back because "[his] mother doesn't keep it there." Weirdo.