Death of Asad Shah

[Keeptrudging]

Asad Shah death: Appeal for calm after shopkeeper attack -
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-35904406

Very sad reading this, it seems that Mr Shah was murdered by a fellow Muslim after posting Happy Easter messages. I don't know any more about this, but how sad that someone who believed in tolerance and integration has been murdered for this.

Do they never think 'hang on, we can't kill the entire world...'.

They believe that the 'correct' flavour is so bloody small in number it's them, their imam, their mate from the mosque, some bloke on YouTube, errrrr.

And I fund the term kafir bloody offensive. Why isn't it consigned to the bin with the n-word, p-word. etc? It's not exactly used in a nice way is it 'oh you cute little kafir, you!'

I've gone off and read about the different kinds of Muslims today, to try to gain a better understanding of the issues. Nope, still don't get it. People are murdering other people for having different beliefs. Do they think that by murdering them, people with beliefs they don't like will suddenly convert to 'acceptable' beliefs? Are they trying to kill everybody who doesn't agree with them? Do they not trust their own followers to be strong enough in their own faith that other faiths won't corrupt them? It just seems like madness.

Immigrants from ME/South Asian minority groups that were persecuted in their countries of origin must be absolutely gutted that they face all the same problems of violence and persecution here. We have totally failed to protect them from nutters who are bitterly opposed to religious pluralism.

Mr Shah's murder, attacks in Britain and Europe, jihadis going off to Syria - all of these things are linked by and fuelled by hatred of pluralism. How does anyone get to be so filled with hatred in 2016 ffs? And why aren't we doing anything about it?

I know I sound about 5, but why do people who only want to have one religion/way of life want to come and live here where they are surrounded by hundreds of different cultures and beliefs? Conversely, why are children born and raised in the UK, who have been brought up in a multicultural, modern society want to go back to a medieval-type culture?

I know I sound about 5, but why do people who only want to have one religion/way of life want to come and live here Economic benefits. TBF there are many muslims who have integrated and for whom religion is a personal matter.

Conversely, why are children born and raised in the UK, who have been brought up in a multicultural, modern society want to go back to a medieval-type culture Religious indoctrination. Often their parents are just as perplexed as you are.

The first generation of Pakistani / Bangladeshi immigrants generally were brought up with a relatively benign (although extremely socially conservative and illiberal by Western standards) version of Islam which focussed really only on prayer and spirituality and not on what was actually written in the Quran. They've only ever 'read' the Quran in Arabic - a language they can read but not understand.

Their children and grandchildren have learnt far more about Islam due to the Saudi funding of madrassas, bookshops and English speaking Imams. They've been exposed to a purer more literal form based on Islam's core texts and how Muhammed and his immediate followers (the Salaf) behaved.

Islam expanded rapidly by military conquest in the first few centuries after its inception and so there's a belief that by emulating those early (brutal) muslims, Islam can restore it's lost glory and expand its reach.

Salafists aim for global domination, through violent and non-violent Jihad. Religious Plurism is only accepted once Islam has established its rule and then certain non-muslims (People of the Book i.e. Jews & Christians) can live freely under a covenant of protection, but with severely reduced rights. Idolators such as Hindus and Ahmadis and non-believers face a choice of convert or die.

Thanks for the explanation Mistress, that helps.

Wizwo Yes we have totally failed the minorities who are being persecuted elsewhere by muslims.

We hear a lot about combatting Islamophobia, but next to nothing, until tragically this week, about the attacks by muslims on others. Muslim anti-semitism is at horrific levels, gays have been physically attacked, non-muslims and uncovered women in 'muslim areas' are regularly verbally accosted and intimidated.

I can almost guarantee that there is not a single Sunni muslim living in the UK today in actual fear of their life or who cannot openly practice their faith. Contrast that with those who've left Islam, many of whom are living double lives, have been ostracised or are in hiding from violent retribution from their families and former communities.

As to why we aren't we doing anything about it - I blame many on the left who are all too ready to shout racism and side with the illiberal factions, thus emboldening the extremists further.

You see it on MN all the time. Atrocities are excused and made into the fault of the West. What can't be excused is ignored or shouted down with cries of Islamophobia. It seems to be the accepted mantra that muslims can only be victims and not perpetrators.

Oh and you also have the politician appeasers who'll turn a blind eye for muslim bloc votes at a domestic level and at an international level, for trade deals and oil.

Thank you, Mia, for your posts. My mother is English, father Pakistani. She left him many years ago when she came to her senses and realised that my life as a female with a muslim father would be constricted, and that I would be made to feel and be different because she foresaw there would be many social occasions my father would not allow me to attend. I was born in London. He lived a secular Western live when they met, but became increasingly unreasonable towards my sister and me.

Muslims, it seems to me, want everything their own way in the UK. We have allowed to be imported sectarian hostilities which will never resolve but will fester until we have another Northern Ireland. The Sunnis do not recognise any other faith or branch of their own faith. The Left excuses violent demonstration, hate speech in public and entitlement that muslims demand, and they forget their original core beliefs. The Left (who are Marxist) have swamped all of our institutions and this is why I feel I am walking on eggshells in respect of what I want to say. Too many people are looking to feel insulted, and any slight is immediately grasped and made into something big and unforgiveable. When this happens you know you have breached some ideological mindset.

The Left dominates our education, NHS, social care, judiciary, police.
Add to this the fact that too many no longer seem able to critically think/ judge/ consider and you have a society where you can only get through life (or even get a job) if you are of the same narrow ideology. This has been going on for a few years now. A the core tenet of any civilised society is the freed to agree to disagree, but instead those who dissent from a majority belief are shouted down, shunned and vilified. That is the work of the Left, and it amazes me that they have joined forces with a misogynist society such as fundamentalist islam. Ordinarily those two would not be seen in the same room, but they are - and you have to ask yourself why.

I think it is an unholy alliance, agreed to by both, to overturn and mindbend this country, so that the population is cowed, without rational thought and no fight. The next generations coming up will never learn how to imagine, think for oneself and to sometimes have very different opinions. We will be a country that is very easy to manipulate.

Its a really sad week for Glasgow.

We know the area for both murders - lived close to Mr Shah's shop and bought our paper there for years, and ds's girlfriend lives right next to where Paige Doherty's body was found.

Buut we are right when we say
#thisisnotwhoweare
#thisisnotwhowewillbecome

Mia and Waffle Thank you for your posts. I agree with both of you. I have lost interest in MN because of closing down of debate (posters banned, posts deleted - who wants or needs a predictable, one-sided discussion?) but I encourage you to keep posting because I'm sure that many people are still reading. You make some excellent points.

Mia and Waffle great posts. Hopefully some of us our still teach our children critical thinking and that they will think for themselves and form their own opinions. That is all we can do.

Debate is a core part of how our society should function without it we run the risk of totalitarian regimes.

I agree Waffle. I have found some of the stuff coming out of the NUT conference this week absolutely terrifying for exactly the same reason.

The conference has been overtly politically left wing with calls for more refugees to be taken, demands to 'bring down the borders', calls for weekly indoctrination assemblies on left wing pet subjects including 'Islamophobia', a ban on teaching British values and the end of Prevent.

The thing that scared me most was that for most pupils anything which went outside the standard left wing standard of thinking for non-Muslim pupils (eg anything less than 100% support for mass immigration and multiculturalism) should be stamped out and the pupils 'reeducated'. No debate, no consideration of ideas outside that box, no balance - just, 'You are wrong'.

But when it came to Islamic extremism they were desperate for rules surrounding it to be relaxed because it was 'stifling debate' and 'making students scared to discuss international issues'.

That they can't see the hypocrisy in that is astounding.

'Miss, I agree with the current government policy to support refugees in the camps around Syria and only take limited numbers of the most vulnerable'.

'You racist little bastard, go to the head for reeducation, punishment and expulsion. We have recorded your hate crime.'

Miss, I believe that killing the unbeliever is justified and support the attacks in Brussels and Paris. ISIS are building an ideal society which fully embraces Islam and all good Muslims should aim to spread the caliphate worldwide'.

'It's wonderful you feel able to discuss this with us safely and securely without judgement Ali. Can you tell your fellow pupils why you feel this way and what you are doing in support of the caliphate. Anything you say will stay between us as I respect your right not to feel stifled in debate'

#thisisnotwhoweare

from a former crossmyloof resident

It's all very well ordinary residents condemning this, but it's not from one of their ilk that this murder emanated.

Some twitter expressions, flowers and candles is not going to do anything to prevent this happening again.

Why hasn't Glasgow Central Mosque (and all others in the UK) declared Ahmadis to be officially muslims and a sect of Islam ? Why are their worshippers not pushing them to do this ?

Why have the mosque leaders not rebuked the Pakistani government for the institutionalised discrimination of Ahmadis (and other minorities) in Pakistan ?

Why haven't muslim worshipers organised a demo to stand up for Ahmadis and protest about their persecution in muslim majority countries, notably Pakistan ?

Why haven't Glasgow Central Mosque sacked Habib Ur-Rahman www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-35893123

This is what the community should be demanding. Get tough on the moderates who give succour to the extremists. This is who we need to be.

Forget #thisisnotwhoweare, we know that, but it is who the extremists are and will continue to be despite twee twitter hashtags.

I've been reading a bit more around this. There's an organisation with offices in London whose sole aim seems to be to condemn/stir up feelings against Ahmadis. Link: www.khatmenubuwwat.org/index.php

It's absolutely hateful, as is a forum called thecult which is linked to it. Disturbing reading.

Do catholics and protestants have information centres purely to condemn each other? Why is the government allowing hate speech/websites like this? It's time they removed their kid gloves. The right to free speech should be curtailed where it is leading directly to other people dying because of if.

Well it looks like the MCB thinks it's ok to advertise on it, so that must make it alright yeah?

Sectarianism especially when it leads to loss of life is always wrong.

Mistress Mia some excellent posts.

There's another thread on the go about the new german proposal to make immigrant earn about 'German values'. There's a bit of hooting about what's british values, why should we make people learn English when Brits abroad don't bother, and teens speak terrible English anyway, it's wasp values anyway... It's when you see organisations like those above that you realise that we just cannot uphold the free speech that we enjoy and love in this country because of these tossers.

"Why hasn't Glasgow Central Mosque (and all others in the UK) declared Ahmadis to be officially muslims and a sect of Islam ? Why are their worshippers not pushing them to do this ?"

It's a simple answer: the fist pillar of Islam is Shahada, declaration of faith that there is one God and Muhammad is the final prophet and messenger to man. Muslims believe Jesus will return before judgement day. The Ahmadis believe that the messiah has already returned in the form of their first leader, Mirza. Ghulam Ahmad.
They can not be accepted as a "sect" of Islam because their fundamental beliefs are different. Sunnis, Shiites, Wahhabis, etc all follow the 5 pillars of Islam. Ahmadis go against it.

But that is neither here or there, what happened to Assad Shah was very very saddening. My heart goes out to his family.

KillBillHill Yes I know all of that see my post here: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/2597741-To-think-we-should-note-how-quickly-the-media-suggests-the-causes-of-attrocities?msgid=60164761

Regardless of what Islam says, do you not think that in view of the horrific persecution of Ahmadis that the time has come for Western muslims, especially those of Pakistani descent to symbolically make a stand and say "Enough is Enough".

"Fuck it and fuck off to the mullahs. We will accept them as muslims because it is obscene what has and is happening to them".

If the whole muslim community came together and made such a pronouncement, can you not see how powerful that would be to bringing about a change and putting a stop to the hatefulness.

From your knowledge I am assuming you are muslim ? Are you of Pakistani descent ?

I am and am utterly utterly ashamed and reviled by the barbarity we the supposed moderates have tacitly approved of and turned a blind eye to.

Watch this video and then come back and tell me that protecting Islamic doctrine is much more important:

When I was studying French A Level, my French teacher taught us about French politics and how she was worried that "angry people" would vote in a right winger who was against integration. Something she said still rings true for me, that, it's only the angry/fanatical people who "do" things. It doesn't matter if they're surrounded by moderates who want a peaceful life.

"I am and am utterly utterly ashamed and reviled by the barbarity we the supposed moderates have tacitly approved of and turned a blind eye to."

I resent this comment you've made. I haven't approved nor turned a blind eye to anything. how can we blame ourselves for a bunch of mad men/women killing innocent people? I refuse to bear the weight of that on my shoulders. In my community I have grown up with Ahmedis, they are part of our community, if not religiously but socially and culturally absolutely. I've never heard of anyone fighting with an Ahmedi. I'm sure it was the same case with Assad Shah. It took ONE mad man to kill him. Not a whole community.

Asking to accept them as a sect though, is not something that is up to moderates. In Ghulam Mirza's books he talks about himself being a prophet and only he is the messiah as decreed by God. As a Muslim and believer of the 5 pillars, you simply can not accept this! Even as a moderate I don't accept it. However, in saying that, I do not condone the attacking and killing of innocents because of their chosen way of life whether it's the religion they choose or sexuality or prefer milk in their coffee!

i don't know if you intend to, but your posts seem to lay a lot of blame on moderate Muslims for apparently "not doing anything", and I don't think that's fair.

Did I just hear something on radio 4 about an investigation into some of the hardline types irigibally from Pakistan bring activd in organisations in Scotland and it bring investigated? Sorry fir scsnt detsils but I'm a bit fuggy headed this morning.

Oh radio 4 now... Glasgow mosque links to banned group in Pakistan right wing extremists/ links to Taliban. Kick the fekkers out. Bloody hell.

It appears it was a real can of worms. I've read through the investigation on BBC and it appears that these 2 men continued with support/membership of the organisation even after both Britain and Pakistan banned it.

It doesn't foster tolerant attitudes does it if this is in the midst of it?

There were some lovely tributes from Asad Shah's family saying the work he did will go on. I really hope that is the case.