Bush's vow to stay in Iraq till democracy established..

[twiglett]

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v interesting article. self-government only way (even if unpalatable to westerners eg hardcore theocracy) and is never going to happen while Bush is in the White House. The US attitude that it is bestowing a great gift on a country by imposing a Western friendly govt on it is at best misguided. Whole thing is a total sh*t show imo. Coalition (hmmm, always found calling it that amusing, basically Americans and wannabees) shouldn't be there, but now that they are, best thing they can do is let the UN take the lead and allow the appointment of Iraqi (rather than America) friendly interim govt.

Find the whole situation incredibly upsetting and angry-making.

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What on earth makes any of us westerners think we live in a democracy anyway there are many disenfranchised people and true democracy would have us much more involved in government. Bush wasnt actually elected fairly was he? Most Americans didnt vote for him and the end of the election was a farce swung by his brother in law. I love it when we become holier than thou about other peoples ways of living as if we have got it right. Iraq is a disgrace to so called democracy imo.

I heard a programme on R4 the other night which interviewed young 'liberal' students in Egypt. They supported the military dictatorship in place there and did not want democray to be established. They were afraid that, if democracy was established, the religious fundamentalists in Egypt would gain control of the country.

Did anyone read the stuff in the Guardian today about the torture of Reuter's journalists in Iraq? I can't believe that our country is collaborating in this awful mess. A theocracy will be worse for the Iraqi people than Saddam (certainly for Iraqi women and girls). I do not believe that a lasting democracy will be achieved, and I don't think torturing people and shutting down independent media is the way to achieve it either. It's a disgusting cesspit we are creating there. Who wanted this war anyway? Think of what the money could have been spent on (schools/NHS) instead of which we are involved in setting up torture centres and blowing the arms off little boys. I can't bear it.

i think it is strange USA only want to establish democracy's in country's were there is oil or another benefit to them. Thre Uk always just goes along. what about the genocide in Tibet nothing is doen there. I would like to think Iraq is abetter place for people without Saddam but to try and make it like the West is wrong

dino yes but the media here and US tahtI have seen always seems to take the line that US and Uk are doing there bit for global peace- I really think some of the reasons for getting involved are tenuous at times . It would be more comforting if yiou could at least believe there some fairness being established in the world.
Another intersting piece of info on Beeb was that the guys running priso in Iraq had history of abuse in the US state prison system

Agree with you dino on all things, I also feel that I can not vote for TB and labour due to this. It is just such a mess

I know taht bit is hard perhaps elect not to vote or vote for candidates from Green or smaller parties (obviously only ones with sound ideas) so they do not lose deposits -

I'm voting Green in the European elections - they have been consistently anti-war and I think the Green coalition actually has some power in Europe. Also Green was successful last time round here so not 'wasted' vote. Voting Lib Dem in UK elections. Just cannot vote Labour because of this - anyway deeply dubious about TB all round. On the London Mayoral elections voting Simon Hughes as he seems a nice bloke. I know Ken is anti-war but not keen on what he has done,don't like congestion charge and anyway, he's in the Labour fold now.
I cannot get my head round the fact that a so called Labour leader is in league with not just the leader of an extreme right wing party, but an extremely right wing leader of a right wing party. How on earth does he square that with is conscience? What conscience, I hear you cry!

glad we spanish got out of iraq,nothing to do with being cowards(as some people have called us)more to do with the fact that our "democratic" goverment went against 90% of the spanish population and lied to get us into this illegal and disgraceful war,i hope you english people can kick TB out too

God, I just don't know who to vote for. DP has actually upped and joined the LibDems, saying he has his limits and won't put up with torture.

I thought for Bush to call the entire population of a democratic country 'cowards' just because they disagreed with his, as you say, illegal and disgraceful war, was truly shocking. So much for democracy, eh, Bush?

Thing is, people like you and me think war and killing people is a Bad Thing. Bush seems to think that killing Bad People (ie everyone he doesn't like, foreigners and non-Christians and suchlike) is a Good Thing. In fact he seems to me to fit the description of religious jihad-fighter really quite well.

My dp's dad was a Muslim revolutionary communist who then became a democratic and uncorrupted civil servant in a Muslim country, by the way.