Tories want to cut sick peoples benefit.

[dottypotter]

Surprised no thread. Our wonderful caring Tory government want to cut ESA for people on the benefit. More MPs voted for cutting then against cutting. It makes me ashamed to be British and to think we live in such an uncaring society. How low can they go?

Cutting peoples money will store up more problems and is so mean. They don't know the meaning of the word support. Its everyones business what they doing. Nobody is immune from needing government help at some time.

Samcro meant people justifying the spending cuts because apparently it is economically necessary. Which it isn't

Of course it's about spending cuts......the country living within its means. We have to get back to a time when the benefits system was what it was intended to be.....a short term safety net rather than a long term crutch. I personally know someone who was prosecuted for fraud for claiming the highest level of DLA when really there was nothing wrong.....the person was working full time and earning £40k, I know another family where 3 generations are on benefit and some of them have "a bad back".
Not everyone who is on disability or carers allowance deserves or needs it....that is not to say that some do.
When I went with my 82 year old friend recently to claim single person's council tax reduction the advisor suggested to him that he claims carers allowance.....he has an arthritic knee but nothing else...we said no as apart from anything else he has plenty of money in the bank.....her reply to this " give to your son and then you can claim". I nearly reported her.
I am all in favour of supporting those that need support but I do think that it has become an expectation and a right.
I think sometimes people forget that it is the rest of the population, ie the tax payers who are paying.
And yes, I voted Tory and will do so again. I do believe that there should be incentives to go to work and that nobody on benefits should be better off than those in work.

I am not w Tory voter but of course we should live within our means. A good friend recently trained with CAB and they were taught to "maximise the benefits" of anyone coming in regardless of the nature of their enquirer. Fair enough if needed, but not otherwise because as pposter said, it's not w bottomless pit of money and tax payers are paying for all this. Benefit system was set up to provide temporary respite for the needy, not a longterm supplement to the many at varying degrees of being underpaid/unemployed/disabled. To reiterate, if genuinely needed, fair enough. But all pensioners getting winter fuel allowance, bus passes and free tv licence? Ffs

dfod
posts like that show how ignorant people are

I don't normally respond to goady Tory posts but your claim about benefit fraud is totally incorrect.
The amount of benefits claimed fraudulently (est. £2.2billion) is less than the benefits that aren't claimed, and less than 1% of the total benefit bill. Compare that to tax fraud estimated at £14billion.
Also, your tale of the people claiming DLA 'fraudulently' - regardless of whether it's true or not, DLA is not an out of work benefit, therefore it matters not what you are earning, if you are fortunate to be able to work through your disabilities. That money is there to pay for the extra costs incurred when someone is disabled. And even though I don't claim any sickness benefits I too have a bad back. Mine consists of Spina Bifida Occulta, Spondylolysis and Spondylolisthesis. Not all 'bad backs' are just a twinge and funnily enough, not everyone goes around telling all and sundry their medical record to justify their benefit claims.

And as for the £30 cut only affecting new claimants that was passed yesterday - more bullshit. When everyone gets passed onto Universal Credit , their claim becomes 'new'. So this change will affect everyone.

The sooner people get their information from real life and not the Daily Mail or Channel 5, the better.

The amount of benefits claimed fraudulently (est. £2.2billion) is less than the benefits that aren't claimed, and less than 1% of the total benefit bill. Compare that to tax fraud estimated at £14billion.

This is what sickens me most based on the general election peoples attitude to benefits. Why is tax evasion seen as a soft crime and benefit fraud short of the death penalty. Tax evasion/avoidance is robbing from the state as well!

you better hope you don't ever need any help longjumping because they wont care less about you.

They've finally forced it through. After being defeated in the Lord's twice (I did start a thread about that op, incidentally), the Tories have apparently attached a 'financial privilege' to their £30 a week cut, which means that the Lords have to just let it through.
www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/a-black-day-for-disabled-people-as-government-pushes-through-cuts-to-esa-a6918421.html

All about spending cuts?? Don't make me sick - because I wouldn't be able to afford to live on ESA. The Hinckley Point scheme is in the news at the moment, Trident renewal has been in recently, and yes, the lack of a decent taxation on big companies like Google, Amazon, Starbucks and the 5 biggest banks in Britain.

It's nothing to do with living in our means, we are the 6th richest country in the world and poorer countries manage somehow not to exploit and abuse their poorest and most vulnerable the way we do. Homelessness is up by a quarter since 2009. Inequality is climbing. The rich are getting ever richer by kicking the poorest in the teeth. Open your bloody eyes longjumping!

The cuts also have the effect of cutting the economy too, this is no way to stage a real recovery. Austerity economics, neoliberal cuts for the rich and debts for the poor, are doing again what they did in 2008.

Bungo, my eyes are really well open. The person who was fraudulently claiming DLA has nothing wrong with them And was prosecuted for fraud. They have to pay it all back. The people with "bad backs" do gardening jobs on the black market....sometimes heavy work on allotments.
I have never said or implied that tax evasion is ok....of course it isn't.
And just because we are a fairly rich country does not mean that those people who work and pay taxes should subsidise people with nothing or little wrong with them. Why should they? Some of the people I know think they are entitled to " government" money....the government has no money other then tax payers money. Where did this entitlement come from? All this talk about cruelty is rubbish. It is only fair that the people who work and earn the money should keep most of it and have some say about how their taxes are spent....and we all had our say at the election.

And I am not being "goadY" . I am simply disagreeing and giving my point of view

Hokaaayy...
"The person" who was prosecuted. One. How many people are fraudulently claiming compared to all the people who will be affected by this? In fact benefit fraud is extremely low, read what BreakingDad put.

As for the rest, if you want to talk about "entitlement" and "fair", you need to ask yourself some or all of the following questions. Others could no doubt add more.

Who earns most money? Where does it come from? Is the amount of money they are earning a fair price for their services, or whatever? Does it fairly represent the value of their services to society? Does everyone in society have an equal opportunity to earn good amounts of money? Is everyone born equal? Do we really live in a meritocracy? Do you want to? What merits do you want to see encouraged and rewarded? Which ones are being rewarded right now? Have you noticed pay is dropping (in the services it's dropping in figure terms, considering the skills required at each level compared to 20 years ago, never mind real terms) and that most work no longer pays?

"We all had our say in the last election"... have a look at issues such as voter turnout, engagement, representation. Most people, especially poor people, do not feel their interests are represented well. Do you truly believe we live in a democracy? What level of democracy? What is society for? Does it not have some responsibility to all of its citizens? Do you truly want this 'dog eat dog and the devil take the hindmost' world that is being created? Does it really represent your best interests, now and for always, in every circumstance?

"all this talk about cruelty is rubbish". People are dying on benefit sanctions. Dying, ffs. Benefits are the lowest amount of money that our society requires people to have in order to survive. And it is being taken away from our poorest and most vulnerable, those whose only crime has been to be born unhealthy, into the wrong families, or have accidents. The DWP know damn well that removing benefits in those circumstances causes extreme hardship. Effectively that means that the state is committing manslaughter, imo. Is that the world you feel comfortable living in? Is this the society you want?

Your point of view is simplistic in the extreme.

Sorry for that last line, obviously wasn't quite as wide awake as I felt at the time.

Actually Movingonmymind bus passes WFA and tv licences for over 75 are not a 'free gift' but have been given as PART of the state pension with claims that in 'real terms' pensioners are better off while in fact UK pensions are now amongst the lowest in Europe.
Bus passes do not cost the state a penny unless the pensioner is on the bus using them, where there is no take up there is no cost.

I do believe that in the UK we live in a democracy. Each adult is entitled to one vote. If some people decide, for whatever reason, not to vote then that does not negate the democracy.
Nobody is dying on benefit sanctions, that is a ridiculous thing to say. It is just as valid to say that people are dying on the higher rate of tax. Of course they are. Benefit sanctions in themselves cannot kill people. And of course benefit sanctions are like speeding tickets...entirely avoidable. In order to access taxpayer funded benefits people have to adhere to their conditions. This is not unreasonable. In order to access wages people have to adhere to the rules of going to work....if they don't go they don't get paid.
What you are advocating is that some people should be entitled to taxpayer funded benefits regardless of whatever they do.....ie that one section of the community pays for the other section because they are entitled to it without having to do anything. This is unfair to both sections. I believe that all people who could work should work. It would remove the dependency culture that we have here.

Oldsu.....you omit to mention that people also have personal responsibility....to take part in our democracy, to look after themselves and to provide for themselves. This is not all one way.

im hiding this thread. the bigoted tory arse lickers make me vomit

longjumping

My pensioner husband provided for others during 45 years of NIC payment he is still providing for others as he is still paying tax.

And my pensioner dad went one better providing for others for 51 years NIC payments and 70 years paying tax.

And I was a working age person have already provided for others paying NIC for 46 years (51 years when I get my pension) and I will be paying tax until the day I die

so don't see your point

sorry I AS not WAS

I think we do need on mumsnet to realise that people like long and I genuinely hold views. We aren't wicked people. We are the majority who voted in the Tores and it can feel a bit like we are being censored on MN and that there is only one view allowed - that the Tories are devils. Those of us on the right tend to be very polite to others with no personal attacks and I appreciate that people have very strong views on both sides, but it is very important the left engage with the right as we are the people you will need to convince if you hope Labour will get in at the next election - not the left supporter's but we in the middle and the right.

Well said DG

Of course people are dying on benefit sanctions and of course they can kill. Go google 'benefit sanctions deaths' or some such phrase, you'll find loads of links on those and slightly lesser hardships. I repeat, benefits are the lowest amount required to survive in and by our society: what do you expect people to live on when they're removed, thin air? Do you want to dispute the growth of homelessness in the last few years too?

I agree with what you say on principle DG but some people make it very hard when they persist in living in a bubble.

Benefit sanctions avoidable?? Another bubble I'm afraid, go look at some of the pathetic reasons quoted for sanctions being imposed. Try looking at Johnny Void's blog johnnyvoid.wordpress.com or The Poor Side of Life blog thepoorsideoflife.wordpress.com . I've heard personal stories myself, but no reason you should believe me if you don't believe them. Exactly what would it take for you to accept... hang on

Sorry, thought there was something about this is the Oakley review & follow-up enquiry, cannot find it immediately, but here is a report from the Child Poverty Action Group on sanctions raising the various questions about their implementation and usefulness www.cpag.org.uk/sites/default/files/CPAG-submission-WPSC-sanctions-inquiry-Dec2014.pdf

And another from CAB Scotland www.cas.org.uk/system/files/publications/Sanctioned%20What%20benefit.pdf There have been various charities raising concerns. Google it.