Why should we stay/leave the EU?

[OhYouLuckyDuck]

What reasons are there for staying or leaving?
I think I will vote for us to stay as I think it might be a moderating influence on any government wanting to do things to extreme plus we will lose trade with Europe if we leave. I'm undecided though.

So we pay for them to train, then they bugger off.

Can I just drop in for long enough to say what a joy it is to read an intelligent thread about this, where the name calling has been at a minimum and respect between opposing views has been maintained? Very refreshing after a visit to my facebook feed where the usual suspects are already indulging in sheep-like herding instincts.

It's a pity when posters are so depisillushioned domestic politics that they feel the only way the fan get the changes the want us via the EU. They forget that the UK and had a welfare state and NHS long before we were members of the EU and it's disingenuous to believe our own Parliaments could not have provided improved social laws without EU initiating them

^ couldnt agree more!

If you cant change the ones here right in front of us how on earth do you think you will influence the mysterious powers that be all the way over in brussles?

I dont get it.

And Yes, am working my way through OUr Island Story at present with DD, wonderful to be reminded of our glorious history. some people talk about the UK like we have literally just emerged from the iron curtain and want to make sure we can never go back to the dark ages. Its not true!

rue, but technically possible that if the UK left the EU it could be open to future governments to repeal legislation that would not be possible to ditch were we still a member. First to go under the current administration would probably be the Human Rights Act, but we'd no longer have the protection of the ECHR in the background

Can I just remind all posters of Magna carter?

"The Magna Carta established and codified many of the principles that still govern modern western constitutional thought. So much so that it was hailed by the Founding Fathers of the United States as the cornerstone of traditional liberties. The Magna Carta has clear echoes in the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution and the Bill of Rights."

"The British constitutional scholar and judge, Lord Denning, described the Magna Carta as "the greatest constitutional document of all times — the foundation of the freedom of the individual against the arbitrary authority of the despot."

!!

Please, no more name calling about supposedly unspecified posters just because you don't call them by name. How about making some PLAUSIBLE points instead FOR A START?

bumpertobumper
And what have the Romans ever done for us?

Cameron is getting a very easy ride in the Commons this afternoon. he's giving us the full Project Fear treatment and going virtually unchallenged. The Cabinet LEAVE voters are not permitted to speak against Cameron.

The only person who's laid a blow on him was Peter Lilley asking where our influence in the EU is when the Council of Ministers has rejected 72 of our last 72 requests.

Sitting here listening to him dismissing sovereignty in favour of 'getting things done' is making my blood boil!

On that basis we should never have liberated the Falklands because, hey, after all, the Argentinians were getting things done down there. Or for liberating Kosovo, because hey, Saddam may have been eveil, but he sure got things done.

This man, I can barely call a Prime Minister, is simply insulting my intelligence. But hey, he's getting things done.

Manatee

What makes you say "We'll still have the Human Rights Act?"

Slightly off topic but in response to Mouse, only 3 clauses of the Magna Carta remain on the statute books, the rest having been repealed, and Lord Denning whilst still alive was nothing if not eccentric (putting it mildly!)

I believe he's got much less eccentric since then.

I'm voting in. I genuinely think leaving would be nuts, as do 80% of the ftse 100 (the main revenue stream for the UK). We are a tiny, overpopulated island with a big head. We would definitely be financially and politically worse off out of the EU, The EU helps with Jobs, eductions - our children could be educated abroad, it will help us fight international crime (european arrest warrant), it helps us travel easily, it buys 50% of our exports (because of decent trade agreements), which helps jobs, it gives us more influence in world politics etc... Boris took so long to decide what to do, because he's a total player and knows that if Cameron loses this he will be the leader of the party (by default PM), if it benefited him personally to stay in, he would do that instead..

We elect our representatives to the EU so we have just as much power there as any other country. It is all spin that we have and will lose our sovereignty. It is also all spin that we contribute more cash than we get back, we don't. Nobody is educated in what the EU is for, why we would be stuffed without it - for example one of our most successful sectors, science will be dead without EU joint funding and research, and that we will be a tiny little Island with our head shrunk to its true size if we leave. The EU is a trading CARTEL and we shall be cut off from it. Scotland will go Independent, as D Cameron well knows. Two disasterous losses on his watch. And yes, EU nationals living here will have to go home and we won't be able to just go and work in any EU country.

I'm voting OUT. I've known for some time, and I've never forgiven them for taking our 200-mile fishing grounds. I might have waivered if they'd given us half that back, but not otherwise. There are other things that I find annoying- such as the migrant workers here who send money 'home' for their families haemorraghing our money back into europe instead of benefitting the GB economy. Summary- The EU is only interested in our money and for that same reason I divorced my ex.

We elect our representatives to the EU so we have just as much power there as any other country.

We don't elect the Commission though, and they do the following:

From ec.europa.eu/about/index_en.htm

propose legislation which is then adopted by the co-legislators, the European Parliament and the Council of Ministers
enforce European law (where necessary with the help of the Court of Justice of the EU)
set a objectives and priorities for action, outlined yearly in the Commission Work Programme and work towards delivering them
manage and implement EU policies and the budget
represent the Union outside Europe (negotiating trade agreements between the EU and other countries, for example.).

To Claig our Political class has not "given our power away", we voted to join the EU. There was a referendum to enter the EU and we have done very well out of it financially as have all the member countries in one way or another. We vote in our representatives too, so that is democratic, and they negotiate for us. Go and lobby your maybe? This is the truth, it is a democratic process, but there is so much spin against it based on old ideas of Empire. Somebody needs to reign in our appalling anti Human Rights governments of recent years, luckily our Members of the European Parliament, who WE VOTE FOR are doing their job.

Boris causes a run in the pound. C4 news. There you go

There was a referendum to enter the EU

We joined the European Community in 1973, under Tory Primer Minister Ted Heath. In 1975 there was a post-legislative referendum and Britain voted to stay in the European Community.

The EU was formed in 1993, with no referendum.

GigiB
I'm voting in. I genuinely think leaving would be nuts, as do 80% of the ftse 100 (the main revenue stream for the UK).

Only 30% of FTSE companies agreed to sign the pro=EU letter that will be published in tomorrow's press, according to Sky. Some of thise FTSE companies have very elaborate tax avoidance sustems that rely on Dutch and Irish 'sandwiches' to limit HMRC revenue, so I don't think they have our interests at heart, as much as they have their own.

We are a tiny, overpopulated island with a big head.

So why are we inviting an of the 400,00million EU citizens to come and life here. A right that could be granted to another 75 Turkish when they join the EU under the fast-track deal that Merkel has negotiated with them.

CoolCat1

It is all spin that we have and will lose our sovereignty.

No, it's reality. Cameron confirmed that. He sees it as a good trade in able to "get things done".

It is also all spin that we contribute more cash than we get back, we don't.

We pay £55m a day directly plus the occasional one-off £1.6bn when they tell us to, plus the cost of the British representation in Brussels plus the cost to the public and to business of implementing the EU directives.

In return they give us back £38M of this to be spent in ways THEY tell decree. I call that bad value.

Nobody is educated in what the EU is for, why we would be stuffed without it - for example one of our most successful sectors, science will be dead without EU joint funding and research, and that we will be a tiny little Island with our head shrunk to its true size if we leave.

Some people are educated about the EU and people are learning more about it every day. The more they learn the more shocking it is that we have tolerated this organisation and given such control over our lives. Without EU joint funding the Research Councils would be using British money to fund British research students in British Universities. Academic collaboration existed long before and will continue long after the EU. Britain has produced more Nobel prize winners than any country - many before the EU was ever dreamt of.

The EU is a trading CARTEL and we shall be cut off from it.

The EU is a trade protection and customs union that prevents us from trading freely with the 168 countries in the world that are not in the EU.

Scotland will go Independent, as D Cameron well knows. Two disasterous losses on his watch.

This Scotland will leave us is just scare-mongering. Ask any Scot if they want to throw their lot in with the disastrous euro and that, as a rich country, they'll have to fund the accession of Albania, they'll run a mile. And to be honest, I don't care if they do go. It's their right to self-determination, as much as ours.

And yes, EU nationals living here will have to go home and we won't be able to just go and work in any EU country.

They won't have to go home, they are permitted to remain in their country of residence in accordance with UN law that prevents the exclusion of any particular group of people. As for working in any EU country, if you've got the skills they need, why shouldn't you?

Boris causes a run in the pound. C4 news. There you go

Good. It shows they are taking the possibility of Brexit seriously and also calls their bluff when we discover that, actually, it doesn't really bother the markets too much in the end. Kills one of Cameron's lies.

Cool1Cat what a load of cobblers, the pound against the dollar closed at 1.41 twice in Jan on the 23rd and the 26th and today at its lowest it dropped it 1.40.

What happens in Jan for it to have fallen that low and twice! Certainly wasn't Boris or more importantly it wasn't to do with a Brexit.

If we leave, what will change?

Do you think immigration issues will go away?
Do you think international trade will improve?
Do you think our international political standing/influence will improve/increase?

No it won't. So why would we want to leave to worsen our current situation and prompt another recession?

'inviting 400million additional people to live here' is a very dramatic overstatement. Many of the 400million have higher average earnings than us, a better education system, infrastructure and public services so even if we did 'invite' them they wouldn't come.

coolcat1
No one was told when we went into the EEC that we were signing up to a Federalist United States if Europe. We were sold the lie that we'd get cheaper holidays and wine. We don't have free trade, we still pay more for our stuff than they do on the continent.
As for Boris causing a run on the pound I'm not sure if you believe that or if you think we are stupid enough to believe that. The remain campaign are already starting the bullshit scaremongering.

Gigi Blair told us 13k poles would come here and instead the best part of a million came. No one is saying 400 mill will come here but we can't stop how ever many want to come as we have no control of our borders.

At the very least we didn't change to the Euro currency other wise we would be more economically screwed then we are now - remember all the fear then and look what has happened.

A little uncertainty is good for the financial markets. They can't make money without it.

Slightly off topic but in response to Mouse, only 3 clauses of the Magna Carta remain on the statute books, the rest having been repealed, and Lord Denning whilst still alive was nothing if not eccentric (putting it mildly!)

Are you dissing the Magna Carter? Who cares about Dennings eccentricities, its known world wide as an incredible, ground breaking document that WE created!

What relevance has Denning got to do with it? As I was skimming through quotes I liked his, surely one doesn't have to trawl through hundreds of comments on the Magna Carta?

Posters are talking about the UK like something from the dark ages that needs the EU to help us form laws.

I just want to point out Magna Carta.