Why should we stay/leave the EU?

[OhYouLuckyDuck]

What reasons are there for staying or leaving?
I think I will vote for us to stay as I think it might be a moderating influence on any government wanting to do things to extreme plus we will lose trade with Europe if we leave. I'm undecided though.

Wow! Article in today's Guardian about eligibility for social housing shows how the EU is working against the average Briton.

The Govt has published a White paper called The Best of Both Worlds - Our Special Status in a Reformed EU.

Buried away in the detail it tells us that in order to qualify for social housing you must be resident in an area for 4 years. This will apply to new migrants and to Britons moving within Britain.

So in a half-baked fudge to try to make EU migration less attractive he is now limiting mobility for ordinary British people who may need to move to a new area to work.

This is a manifestation of what I explained - downthread. That there are no advantages in the UK to those who are British passport holders. Under EU law there must ne no discrimination between the ordinarily resident British indigenous population and any other EU citizen who happens to be living in Britain.

Being British is officially dead.

Wow. I've read the whole thread and its given me more intelligent views and information - from both sides - than I've seen anywhere else.
My head hurts thought and I'm still undecided.

Springing, can you link to that article please?

Being British is officially dead is a daft thing to say.

We don't elect the Commission though, and they do the following:

- propose legislation which is then adopted by the co-legislators, the European Parliament and the Council of Ministers

The exact same thing happens when laws are made in the UK. Do you honestly believe that our MPs have the across the board expertise that would be needed for them to initiate the huge variety of detailed and technical UK laws? Of course they don't. There are a plethora of unelected groups, committees and quangos that propose legislation in their fields of expertise which are then either approved or rejected by parliament. The EU is no different.

enforce European law (where necessary with the help of the Court of Justice of the EU)

Our own laws are enforced through our Courts and none of their judges or staff are elected. In fact this 'separation of powers' is a key element of ensuring justice.

set a objectives and priorities for action, outlined yearly in the Commission Work Programme and work towards delivering them
manage and implement EU policies and the budget

Like our unelected civil servants do.

represent the Union outside Europe (negotiating trade agreements between the EU and other countries, for example.).

I will concede the EU institutions are far from perfect but people need to understand that the UK's aren't either. The argument about EU lacking democratic accountability is equally applicable to the UK.

we need to face a few brutal facts here

No one gave a shit about the EU membership, until the poorer EU countries joined- and then (inflamed by pretty much the whole of the UK bigoted fucktard media , people started to get very affronted by the fact that people came from poorer countries- to work, but if you read the media - they are all living in massive council flats receiving benefits

I live in an area highly populated by East Europeans, they all work and not only do they work, they SPEND THEIR MONEY HERE

they don't pop back to the Tesco Metro in Warsaw every weekend!
they work, and spend their money here

why, after all the events in the past 100 years would we willingly isolate ourselves? Norway is rich due to their oil and gas reserves, we are not

and lets face it DC did pretty bloody well in the recent negotiations

Being British is officially dead

hello Nigel! how are you keeping these days?

and lets face it DC did pretty bloody well in the recent negotiations

I have to object to this. DC linked me as a UK resident as someone who wants to take child benefits away. Yuck!

We're not 'isolating ourselves'. We're disengaging from an increasingly undemocratic political union that is run in the interests of elites and big business.

No-one is proposing that we cut ourselves off diplomatically and economically from the continent. But it just doesn't follow that in rder to cooperate with other European nations we have to have the same government as them - and that is where the EU is quite explicitly heading.

I kind of agree on that child benefit issue to be honest, if we take away the emotive "child" issue its nonsensical that a benefit like this applies when the recipients are not physically here

The exact same thing happens when laws are made in the UK.

The elected MEPs aren't allowed to propose any draft laws. The commission has a monopoly on proposing all EU legislation. By contrast, in the UK a bill can be introduced by our elected government, individual MPs or (admittedly unelected) Lords, private individuals or organisations.

Furthermore, the commissioners are only permitted to work for the interests of the EU and not represent the interests of their own nation at all.

The unelected commission are not civil servants but politicians, and their president is the most powerful office-holder in the EU, whereas in the UK the prime minister is by convention an elected MP.

Going back a couple of pages to the question about workers protections being removed, and Manatee's and other's idea that that would be prevented by massive social outcry.... really?? do you think??

This is my concern, and they would not remove protections all at once. It would be like the proverbial whatever-it-was sitting in a pan of water. The same way in which they are gradually killing off the public sector, public services, the whole notion of a valuable public domain outside the economic sphere, the ideas that there is anything valuable apart from the narrow economic focus (ironic that that focus is self-destructive) on money.

20 years ago, as Gove's speech highlighted, we had free university education. 20 years ago we had a strong NHS. 25 years ago (or so) we had a not-for-profit public transport and infrastructure system, energy, water, etc. 10 years ago there were no academies and the idea of forcing all schools to become private would have been laughed at. 20 years ago you could do a decent day's work, even on low money, get a decent day's wage and save up if you were sensible and a good budgeter to buy a house. 20 years ago £1000 was considered a big debt at university. Now kids are coming out, starting off in life with debts of £50 - £60k, and many think thisis fully justified and acceptable.

Some things have improved - official attitudes to sex attacks on women have improved, but recently the sex industry seems to be taking off in a big way again - and I'm not saying that the public sector couldn't have used improvement (though I would argue with anyone that thinks publuc debt and private profit i.e. privatization of communal resources is a good thing in general). But it is utterly naive to say that these things won't happen because there'd be a public outcry. Morals change, ideas change, and politicians and media are in cahoots. While we all lack crystal balls and no options available look that that good, we all need to have a good think about which groups are most likely to lead us down which paths.

Thanks springing, I had wondered about that. I noticed at first when the talk was of stopping everyone from claiming benefits for 4 years that that would affect our own population too (hitting the young yet again : god help anyone in my shoes at that age, from a poor family and borderline domestic violence), but that little point seemed to quietly drop out of the media's eye and I wondered what had happened.

Immigration definitely needs to be looked at. But whether it's worth leaving the EU?

Bungo - of course we can't guarantee that things would not change under a Parliamentary govt. But we can't guarantee that they wouldn't change under the EU either. I look at the way the Troika has laid waste to welfare in the southern Mediterranean Eurozone states, as a condition of lending states money so they can give it straight back to French and German banks the Eurozone bailouts. Then I look at TTIP. And I don't see an institution that is on the side of workers against the interests of big business.

The EU usurped the role of trade unions in protecting workers. And unlike a Parliamentary government, if they deign to take away these vaunted social protections there is no democratic comeback - because the people who get things done in the EU are not elected, so they don't care what we think.

The EU might once have been a force for social good in Europe. But it isn't any more. Realising this is what turned me from ardent Europhile to passionate Brexiteer. Please don't base your vote on its past glories - look at its present arrogance, sclerosis, lack of democracy and snug relationship with corporate lobbyists and ask yourself if you really trust the EU enough to be willing to hand it a social mandate you can then never rescind.

OUT

Stopshoutingatme

hello Nigel! how are you keeping these days?

That's neither accurate nor helpful. This thread isn't about name-calling.

I have actually been 'giving a shit' about EU membership for decades. long before mass migration of EU migrants. Foe m this issue is not about migration, its a matter of sovereignty and self-determination. This is much more important. With sovereignty you avoid mass uncontrolled migration anyway.

it's quite clear that in the eyes of the eye anyone living in any EU country is an EU citizen with no discriminate permitted for those who have been habitually resident in those countries.

BungoWomble

There problem with 'free' anything, be it education, health, housing, transport or whatever, you have to know how number people will use it, how frequently, and project future usage, in order to be able to accurately predict the costs of providing say free university places.

That was easy years ago when census data taken every 10 years and combined with net migration figures and other ONS data could give you reasonably accurate data on which to cost and develop those services to the established population of the UK.

These days we have no idea from year to year how many people will arrive / depart as all EU citizens have the right to live in the UK. as the Govt found, it tries to limit migration to a few 10,000s each year but gets 365,00 migrants a year.

Each one of those 100,000s of new EU migrant arrivals are entitled to the same services as the existing British. This reduces the Govt's ability to give 'free' anything to anyone as the costs of doing so are unbounded due to immigration. Outside the EU the Govt will know the population size because it can limit immigration. It is therefore much more likely to give 'free' anything, knowing the costs of doing so rather than at present when the costs of doing are unbounded known levels of EU citizens asserting their rights to live here.

As a matter of interest I used the Entitled to website to get an idea of how much a migrant with a wife and 2 young children, residing in Southern England ~(outside London) in private rented accommodation and on minimum wage would receive in benefits. I did this to see for myself what the effects of Dave's deal would have. It is clear that those migrants on low wages pay very little income tax and national insurance but are entitled to thousands of pounds each year in CTC, CB, HB etc. The Govt may claim to have the highest ever working population but seems wrong to be subsiding the living costs of people who come to this country to work, but whose wages are too low to support them with large Government subsidises.

If immigration is your primary concern and polls show that it is the top issue with the public, then the only way to control immigration is to leave the EU. It's impossible to do so without leaving the EU. (Queue some more name-calling at me for pointing out this inconvenient fact). That doesn't mean we stop migration, but it enable us, not the EU, to control who we decide we want to come to live here.

Personally, I am rather pissed off under Dave's deal, as my child with a non-EU partner earns less than the £35K that Dave's new deal demand they earn to be able to have their partner living in the UK with them.

It's about the UK making it's own laws and decisions. And not being dictated to by a committee in Europe that can overturn any UK law or Parliamnetary decision they don't like. If the UK leaves then other countries will follow. And that will be the end of it. IMHO. Ever closer union is a totally mad idea and could have serious conseqeunces and will never work. It should have stayed as a trade agreemend but has morphed into this virtual dictatorship. I will be voting out.

SpringingIntoAction , sorry! its just that sentence in particular was a bit Nigelly

but sentences like As a matter of interest I used the Entitled to website to get an idea of how much a migrant with a wife and 2 young children

really bring home the point I was trying to make

we were OK with affluent middle class French and Spanish lawyers coming over, less so with Polish and Slovakian chicken factory workers

I really hope that the short term, oftentimes Xenophobic views of a few don't determine the longer term future of the UK

I don't think Greece or Ireland will be allowed to leave too. Vivienne, who do you think will leave?

What do you mean, "allowed?"

My thinking is related is they are financially beholden.

So who will stop them leaving?

My thinking is related is they are financially beholden.

Yannis Varoufakis (Greek Finance Minister) said Greece could not have defaulted on its debts, left the Eurozone, devalued and rebuilt it's economy as Greece had no sovereign currency to fall back on if it left the Euro. That's why Argentina and Iceland could default - they still had their own currencies.

It's reported that Greece destroyed the plates that would have enabled them to print Drachmas again when the joined the Euro as they were terrified off a Grexit.

Starting to feel a bit of an undercuurent of momentum towards LEAVE, almost as a protest against Cameron and his cabal of bankers, tax avoiders and self-serving politicians.

This summer is going to be absolutely tragic for Europe and the EU still has no mechanism for dealing with the migrant crisis other than trying to bribe Erdogan to stop it while the migrants bribe people-smugglers to take them to Greece and Italy. According to the International Maritime Organisation there have been 100,000 arrivals into Greece and Italy this year alone plus the tragedy of 413 deaths.

I am sitting here in amazement as the 28 countries of this 'strong' EU partnership seem utterly impotent to stop these people risking their lives and dying to get here. Where are our navies? Why are we as members of the UN Security Council not taking a lead in dragging the others to resolve this Syria crisis to end the migrant crisis? Where is the combined EU effort to build and protect refugee camps in the area of Syria that is still under Govt control? Why, if you are planning to give the migrants asylum in Germany are you forcing them to travel thousands of miles across Europe under their own steam instead of helping them when they arrive? If you're not planning to give them asylum why are you letting them haul themselves across the Balkans to be sent back home again? Total uncoordinated human tragedy.

The EU has proved itself impotent in the face of any crisis. It was just as impotent in the wars following the break up of Yugoslavia. It doesn't add to security at all. It just dithers.

"It's reported that Greece destroyed the plates that would have enabled them to print Drachmas again when the joined the Euro as they were terrified off a Grexit. "

that's a nonsensical argument.

1. They could make new plates and use a different design
2. de la Rue print banknotes for lots of countries who don't have the technology.

nonsensical argument

I didn't offer it as an argument it was something I was told when I attended a University lecture on the Greek debt crisis.

Yes, of course it would be physically possible to print a new currency. But don't forget, Tspiras was trying to stay in the Euro at the time. It's not just a matter of printing it. It has to be distributed. IT systems have to recognise it. Machines have to recognise it etc.

Springing it's not the Syrian civil war that's causing the migrant crisis - the largest single "nation" represented during this recent issue is actually Kosovo (and, in all likelihood, Albanians pretending to be Kosovars).

For those worrying about workers rights - the UK signed and ratified the international convention that guarantees these before many other EU members: and take a look here and here to see what the Unions have to say about EU worker's rights...