Why should we stay/leave the EU?

[OhYouLuckyDuck]

What reasons are there for staying or leaving?
I think I will vote for us to stay as I think it might be a moderating influence on any government wanting to do things to extreme plus we will lose trade with Europe if we leave. I'm undecided though.

er... DG is proud of making money & unashamed that she has prioritised making money in life. But has other principles, too.
Much as it pains me to say this, I am heartened to see what DG has written on this thread.
DD is a lot like DG (lol).... and proof that DG's hypotheses about maternal female role models don't always work.

"Piglet - really sorry that article didn't say what you wanted it to say"

Perhaps you should be more sorry that the title, and the vast majority of the text, are not what Angela said, so your words "according to Mrs Merkel" are untrue.

For those of you in the left (not me) do remember that much of the protection workers have from minimum hours under the working time directive to much of our equality legislation comes from EU legislation

And lots of jobs have also been lost to millions of EU workers, esp in trade.

Brits called lazy cant compete with Eastern Europeans living in basic lodgings, paid weekly in cash, living on shoe strings, compared to Brits with proper rents, mortgages or families to provide for.

Far more competition for all sorts of jobs incl reception work and the awful derogation of Brits as lazy.

I find this idea that we need the EU to give us fair laws bizarre! We gave the world the Magna Carta! We have brought plenty of our own amazing laws in before the EU ever got involved!

We are one of the most advanced and liberal countries in the world. More advanced than America thats for sure.

Yes there is always more to work on, but we do not need the EU to hold our hand to do it.

If we lose our position in the EU block we might well become America's poodle though - even less power. We are not going to return to the days when the sun never set on the British empire, most of the Globe was GB's pink colour and the then Queen was Empress of India.

I am amused that right and left are joining hands - Corbyn, Blairites and the 1% united in a common aim - to keep peace in Europe and keep us at the heart of the biggest trading block of the world. We will stay in. i am sure of it.

When we have a government that doesn't like workers rights, and opts out of rights that the EU agrees should exist, then the Magna Carta is no help.

As Churchill said, when you don't have proper standards, you are in a race to the bottom

" the good employer is undercut by the bad, and the bad employer is undercut by the worst; "

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trade_Boards_Act_1909

When we have a government that doesn't like workers rights, and opts out of rights that the EU agrees should exist, then the Magna Carta is no help.

Then we vote them out.

I agree with AMouse that we don't need the EU for Britain to have a fair society. For example the Equal Pay Act in the UK was introduced in 1970, so before we joined the EU. The UK provides 52 weeks maternity leave, but the EU minimum is 14 weeks. The UK also exceeds the EU minimum of 4 weeks holiday, offering 5.6 weeks.

"Then we vote them out."

Biscuit is very lucky always to have lived under governments that shared her views.

Biscuit is very lucky always to have lived under governments that shared her views.

Not at all. There have been numerous changes of government in my lifetime, some which I supported, some not. But the tide generally changes here when the government strays too far from a reasonable middle ground. Yes, I'm lucky to be in the UK where this happens.

Do you feel lucky to be in the EU which shares your views Piglet? Do you take it for granted that its position on all the major issues will not change? We don't know what it will do next. What's your suggestion for Britain if the EU changes much for the worse in your opinion and we're stuck with it?

Cameron's recent attempts at reform haven't been a great success. If Britain can't reform the EU then we're better going it alone.

People on either side (and want us to stay) might like to read this

www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/503908/54538_EU_Series_No2_Accessible.pdf

It is the government's summary of the process of leaving the EU.

Then we vote them out

I vote each time but nothing changes

Do you feel lucky to be in the EU which shares your views Piglet

I feel lucky the EU has been able to backstop conservative and Nu-labour governments.

As has been mentioned unfortunately our governments are generally anti-worker and so clash with the EU.

I would still like to know which party people think are going to bring you to the #Brexit holyland

Interesting document DeoG -

It is therefore probable that it would take an extended period to negotiate first our exit from the EU, secondly our future arrangements with the EU, and thirdly our trade deals with countries outside of the EU, on any terms that would be acceptable to the UK. In short, a vote to leave the EU would be the start, not the end, of a process. It could lead to up to a decade or more of uncertainty.

Im assuming ten years is their optimistic guess so 10-15 years maybe?

What? Politicians, lawyers, drag something out? Who would have thought? That'll never happen, will it...

I feel lucky the EU has been able to backstop conservative and Nu-labour governments.

Personally I don't think there should be any superior power to the British Government that is democratically elected by its people. Having an unelected 'backstop' may seem a benefit at present but would you feel the same way if the EU went very Right wing and parties such as the French National Front, Alternative fur Deutschland and Golden Dawn were holding significant power in the EU and there was no way you could dismiss them?

As has been mentioned unfortunately our governments are generally anti-worker and so clash with the EU.

I wonder why Goldman Sachs, JP Morgan and big Corpa are all backing the REMAIN campaign. I don't think they have the best interests of the UK workforce at heart. TTIP will give them quite a lot of corporate clout over the workforces of the EU.

I would still like to know which party people think are going to bring you to the #Brexit holyland

The referendum decision is a mandate from the British people to the British Government. the Tories have said they would abide by our decision. I would expect any successive Government to take heed of that mandate. So I would expect the Tories to lead us to the 'Brexit holyland' and for any successive Government to continue on that path.

The doc referenced by Deo is a Government document. It will support the Govt's REMAIN view. There will be 2 years of negotiation with the EU. I think people are making it out to be a lot more difficult than it actually will be. We retain all EU originated law that has been passed by our Govt. There is no need to repeal any of it just because wee the EU. Treaties cease, a new relationship is decided, life goes on. We'll look back at it like we look back at the Millennium Y2K scare and wonder what all the fuss was about.

The alternative is uncontrolled borders and the eventual collapse of our welfare and NHS.

No contest.

I believe Europe much more sensitive to far rightism, dont get me wrong I agree its there and gets whipped up as seen by those parties wins but wouldn't turn into people in power. But much of this is due to us not sorting out the route of the problem. Syria has imploded we need peacekeepers setting up safe areas starting from the border moving centrally and pushing east and west.

The banks are all in as EU took the debt off them, but thats a general problem that needed to be addressed not helped by our government refusal to break the banking industry. It should have been allowed to fail. I wanted bankers in jail but again no major party is going to put their mates/partners in etc.

Industries critical to local communities can go but finance is untouchable. Though this is a class/establishment issue as we had the same under Nu-Labour where they let that alternative energy factory go to the wall on the Isle Of Wight, (interestingly it has now come back)

I don't really agree with the uncontrolled border as last time i checked you get asked for your passport whenever you enter or leave this country. The NHS budget could be doubled if we came down on tax evasion (again wont happen see above).

If we got a brexit i fear a ToryMax ultra free market type government and god help anyone who needs the states help. They wont be subsidising farmers, the disabled, the low income, workers rights etc will go out the window "to cut red tape" etc.

I don't really agree with the uncontrolled border as last time i checked you get asked for your passport whenever you enter or leave this country.

You're describing passport control. Passport control is what we go through when we enter or leave the country. Open borders means free movement of people - any EU citizen has the right to live in any EU country (even if they have to show their own passport to come in and out of the UK). They can come here to live and the British Govt must aloe them

The NHS budget could be doubled if we came down on tax evasion (again wont happen see above).

Every citizen of the Eu is permitted to come to the UK and use our NHS free at the point of delivery. No health service can provide that level of care to so many people, so the amount of care it offers us will have to reduce. That will be a direct consequence of staying in the EU.

If we got a brexit i fear a ToryMax ultra free market type government and god help anyone who needs the states help. They wont be subsidising farmers, the disabled, the low income, workers rights etc will go out the window "to cut red tape" etc

Big corpa is funding the stay campaign. Banks such as JP Morgan, Goldman Sachs have armies of lobbyists all persuading the EU to shape itself in a way that best suits those big companies. I don't believe for one moment that Goldman Sachs is funding the STAY campaign because it believe in wokers rights. Read some social history and you'll find that it wasn't just Labour that introduced social reforms. You'll find that Tories raised pensions and reduced the pension age to 65 amongst other things. Ask yourself why, historically, Labour was anti-EU?

This is an issue that is much bigger than tribal politics

I'd hope from my posts you would have seen that I have problems with both Conservatives and Nu-labour, conservatives are in power at the moment and ToryMax is based on their current performance.

Spring - you seemed to have not read what I said about banks above - JP morgan etc want in so when they fuck up again EU will step in and take debt off them. As I said before the political establishment is too closely tied to the city and leaving EU wont change that.

BreakingDad
I have read your posts. I have found them thought-provoking, especially when you equated the EU as a back-stop to extreme domestic politics. I have been thinking about that point and considering what the implications of that could be for us in the UK and the Governments of other EU countries. Like you I also don't support the Tories or Nu Labour and I'm not a member of any political party.
All I am interested in is democracy - the right of the people to remove their Government. I think most people, would admit that the EU has a democratic deficit, even one of its strongest supporters, Mandelson said yesterday evening that the European Parliament needs to have more power.
It's democratic deficit and the inability of the British people to remove an authority that has power over them that I object to. Sorry if you felt I was criticising you, I wasn't.

Yesterday we heard that a group of people are planning to take the Government to the EU courts in order to enforce EU directives. If successful it will cost the UK a hell of a lot of money. Whilst I can sympathise with their overarching objective, it gets up my throat that the rest of Europe ignores the said directive. (this one is about air pollution.. having sat in wall to wall traffic jams in Paris it is very clear that Paris falls way outside set limits)

It seems to me that if the objective of a common market is at the base of the EU project, then it should be the EU that enforces EU directives. However the EU doesn't actually work like that. Thus we are hamstrung by EU Directives that are ignored by the rest of Europe.

I have been advising on legal rights to sue under directives for years and years. this is not knew. The Factortame case was decades ago when Spanish fishermen sued the British Government for breach of EU law in banning their fishing in British waters. If you apply for judicial review of an EU directive as I and others did last year in the English courts the court will often then refer it to the Court of Justice of the EU as they did then.

It is not true that all of Europe except us ignores EU directives. I agree some countries ignore them a bit but on the whole most comply.

"The UK also exceeds the EU minimum of 4 weeks holiday, offering 5.6 weeks." That's not true. We had no minimum holiday at all in English law until the EU forced us to and we were forced bit by bit by the EU to extend it up to 5.6 weeks including bank holidays.

I don't think the EU is perfect but we are better in than out.

No worries springing, yes I can see the passion for democracy but I have become so despondent with Labour and Conservatives, career politicians that I feel we haven't had democracy for a while.

Deo,
As you zre involved with drafting EU directives.. Please explain why we now have a Directive requiring all pubs and restaurants to display a sign advising customers they must ask the staff about any possible allergy issues? What has this got to do with trade?

Why do we now have a Directive requiring all steel used to have a passport trail from mill to building site? This has resulted in scrapping thousands of tonnes of pefectly good steel because there is no paper trail available.

Why do we have a directive requiring that any steelwork must be designed and signed off by a qualified structural engineer! I want to change my garage door. It will need a lintel. I used to be able to simply buy a big chunk of steel... now I have to spend money on a engineer to calculate the size needed... WTF?

My other half is a bean counter. Accounting standards used to be simple and actually tell you what the state of the business is.. The latest SAAP is almost impossible to understand, it takes three times as long to prepare and does not tell you about the state of the business... It is an Eu standard.

And why above all else does the EU not enforce its directives and instead leaves the police work to self interested busy bodies like the RSPB when there is flagrant disregard for EU dirctives in the rest of Europe?

Definitely with no doubt whatsoever LEAVE.

I did start a Thread " In out shake it all about,the EU what to vote.
The Thread is full but still accessible.

I posted loads of information and my views.

Feel free to have a look.

Plus I was invited to start another Thread entitled "The EU Referendum is nearly upon us .....23 rd of June.

There also I put my case backed by many newspaper articles ranging from the Daily Mail through to The Shetland Times to the Guardian.Plus the Business case to leave The Economic case to leave etcetera, etcetera,loads of information.

Articles by women who wish to leave.Such as Suzanne Moore writing in the Guardian and Priti Patel the Minister of State for employment and Cabinet Minister.

As a mum and along with my husband who is an Economist we are very very happy to vote Leave.

I have contributed extensively to these Threads and therefore will not be posting more.

Do please have a look at them.

I am in the happy position of total confidence in my choice to vote Leave along with my husband,family,pals and acquaintances.

A couple of thoughts...

Yesteredays headlines included a story about the Austrians building a fence across the Brenner Pass to stop illigal immigrants crossing from Italy. Europe is failing to deal with the migrant issue. Rescuing people from leaky boats and completing their journey to the EU is not a solution. Indeed it is encouraging people to try. This is already causing a lot of trouble in Europe.. and for us.. think the Jungle.

Cameron says that we want an opt out from an ever closer union. But Europe wants an ever closer union. Indeed an ever closer union is at the heart of the EU project and it is working in that direction. Why do we want to be part of Europe when we don't want to be part of the very idea at the heart of Europe?

Our reluctance to be part of the heart of the EU project seems to make us unpopular with the rest of Europe. We have become isolated from other EU countries by being negative and will never be at the heart of Europe until we embrace ever closer union so we will always be negotiating from an outside position.

Hello there are so many posts on the EU ref, I'm trying to google a certain question but there so many articles....

Can someone here more intelligent than me please answer a question I have?

The European Convention on Human Rights is something I condider to be vital to us all in the UK. If we LEAVE do we also leave the ECHR? Will it be easier for the Tories to opt out of it if we leave?

European Convention on Human Rights is overseen by the Council of Europe a completely separate organisation from the European Union. The Council of Europe was founded in 1949 & the UK was one of the founding members. In fact the UK drafted much of the legislation. There are now 47 countries in the Council of Europe as opposed to 28 in the EU.If we leave the EU it won't make any difference unless the Human Rights Act is repealed.