Why should we stay/leave the EU?

[OhYouLuckyDuck]

What reasons are there for staying or leaving?
I think I will vote for us to stay as I think it might be a moderating influence on any government wanting to do things to extreme plus we will lose trade with Europe if we leave. I'm undecided though.

BreakingDad77
^
But I believe the UK outside of EU would sign up to it 100% as US is held up by this government as the gold standard^

That's why Goldman Sachs, JP Morgan and big corpa want you to vote to REMAIN in the EU. That's why Goldman Sachs is funding the REMAIN campaign. Because their lobbyists shape the EU rules to suit them - not to suit the ordinary working man. Goldman Sachs are funding the REMAIN campaign to benefit to ordinary working man.

Maybe Cameron would try to get TTIP if we left the EU but he'd have to start negotiating from scratch. But

1. we may not have TTIP at the point we LEAVE
2. we can protest any Govt adopting TTIP post BREXIT
3. out of the EU we can vote out Governments and elect one that doesn't want TTIP or would repeal it

The only thing that is clear and not a leap in the dark is that if you stay in the EU you WILL get TTIP and no choice in that matter.

Stopshoutingatme

you really seem to resent east Europeans getting any type of benefits or healthcare don't you

That's not fair to accuse TheAlchemist of that.

People need to understand that the NHS is the only health service within the EU that is free at the point of delivery. The public health services in other EU countries are either basic, require payment to use or are insurance -based. In Poland use pay for prescriptions. In Ireland you pay to see your GP etc.

The NHS cannot afford to provide treatment to any of the 400 million EU citizens who may wish to use it. Fact. TheAlchemist was giving you an example of the costs to our NHS of treating migrants of paid anything into the system.

It does not serve anyone to over-burden the NHS to the extent that it can only afford to provide basic health care to us in the UK. Start doing that and those can afford to do so will start looking for private health care. Those who can't afford private care to top up a basic NHS will suffer - the poor, thes scik, the seriously ill, the chronically ill. We won't be able to give them other than basic care. That's not what I want to see.

You cannot have an NHS or welfare with open access to 400 million EU citizens. No country in the world is rich enough for that.

EU or NHS, your choice.

Surely this is an enforcement issue then and we are getting side tracked.

I think the big banks want in as EU took on the debt of the crisis, and they probably believe same would happen again when the banks topple our economy again.

Im from the science and technology field and there are concerns how this will effect us. The uk government is not going to step in and put up same budgets as EU and also what would happen to all the scientific staff, we'd have to rush through some visa system and everything else, could lead to a brain drain.

I can understand your passion but to me neither labour or tories have a strong brexit plan. Its just sounds like lots of "we wont have to do this", not much of - we will replace this with that.

Brexit feels like the fish escaping the tank at the Finding Nemo, stuck in bags bobbing in the sea "now what"

we could have co-pay within NHS. I would be okay with that. It's not perfect, but no system is. European charges are mostly pretty modest. My dad was astounded at how little he paid for broken arm treatment in Italy. So little he was sure they must be primitive cowboys.

Or even a modified system. So you pay for the first 5 appointments each year but not ones afterwards or that are part of the same ongoing problem.

BreakingDad77

Some people will have worked out that staying in is the best for the/the UK and that's fine. Stay in get TTIP

Other people will have worked out that leaving is better for them / the UK and that's fine too.

I don't share your view that British research would be starved of funds post brexit. Much of that 'EU' funding is part of the UK's £55m a day funding that we hand to the EU, so it can rebadge it and send it back as 'EU research funds'.

I disagree that Brexit would deny us good foreign scientists because of visas. Being in the EU and accepting mass uncontrolled immigration from the EU countries means the Govt is tightening up on non-EU migration to the UK because that's the only way to get immigration figures down.

That means that it is much harder for scientists throughout the world to come to Britain as they must get through harsher residency qualifications. That limits the pool of skilled scientific labour from throughout the world that we could be drawing on. At present if you are a non-EU person working in a non PHd level scientific job you must earn around £18K a year to work in the UK. Under Cameron's new Special Status for Britain in the UK, the amount that a non-EU scientists working in the UK in a non-PhD level job increases to £35.5K, making it unaffordable for many non-EU scientists to remain in the UK. I know this because my child's partner may be affected and may have to return to their home country.

So by having to set tougher non-EU migration standards to stay in the EU we're depriving ourselves of good scientific staff from across the world. We are limiting our opportunities to compete.

Nobody can say what would happen if we leave or if we stay.

But one thing that is clear is that if we leave we regain our ability to make our own laws and to invite the brightest and skilled scientists from around the world to come to the UK to collaborate on research - instead of having to restrict it because of EU membership.

TTIP is dead cert if we leave. We'll be scramblng around so deperate to ally ourselves with someone somewhere economically that we will sign everything away on even less favourable terms.

TTIP is dead cert if we leave. We'll be scramblng around so deperate to ally ourselves with someone somewhere economically that we will sign everything away on even less favourable terms.

TTIP would not be available to us if we left so how could we be a party to someone else's agreement? It's an US / EU agreement, not a US/UK agreement. We would have to negotiate our own version of any TTIP that favoured the UK, not the UK as part of an EU of Uk and 27 other countries. And if you didn't want TTIP, then out of the EU you could vote for a UK government that didn't want TTIP.

If you don't want TTIP then it's silly to vote to stay in an EU that is going to give you TTIP.

Much better to vote out and avoid it / get it over-turned / or if you must have it, get a deal that suits Britain.

We won't be scrabbling around for trade deals. They will be scrabbling for a trade deal with us as they sell us more than we sell them

same outcome springing, whatever it is called. i do not believe that the terms would be more favourable. and i think the chances of electing an anti-ttip govt post brexit is v slim

health tourism by EU nationals is not a myth I work in a medical speciality in a NHS hospital and over the last 6 months we have had to create an additional clinic for EU migrants' children who have a chronic condition requiring life long treatment. One of the treatments we offer cost £200,000 per child per year. Apparently most of them were advised by their doctors in their own countries to move to the UK as we offer the most up to date treatment for free. I have heard the same thing happening from colleagues who work in other medical specialities

That there is not a lack of enforcement - all EU citizens are equal to any other and we cannot turn them away as far as I know. Until it bankrupts the NHS anyway. Again, I highlight this sentence from Alchemist

Apparently most of them were advised by their doctors in their own countries to move to the UK as we offer the most up to date treatment for free.

I'm sure I'll be called a kipper or a racist for saying it, as that's the usual response, but we cannot afford this. We have tax credits, housing benefit, free education, free healthcare, free, free, free. If we stay in the EU surely we will have to reduce all these free benefits to UK citizens in order to keep throwing money at anybody else who turns up. It's not sustainable, and we're seeing govt cuts hitting harder than ever now as there simply isn't the money, the resources or the housing to go round. Very sad.

[Much] 'EU' funding is part of the UK's £55m a day funding that we hand to the EU, so it can rebadge it and send it back as 'EU research funds'

I guess the complication is that we would definitely have a limbo period... say it takes almost 4 yrs to negotiate our exit & new status. All this time UK still pays into EU as temporary EU members, but EU halts funding back to UK for more than very short term projects because of our uncertain but soon departure date. Any Horizon 2020 applications already prepared are lost causes. Also, the UK govt seems unlikely to fund research that needs true international cooperation, like say, air quality improvement. Whereas EU is keen to fund those types of projects. Scientists would need to secure understandings about promised UK funding if matching funder can be found with international data/collaborators, it's a pain to get research projects going like that.

it is much harder for scientists throughout the world to come to Britain as they must get through harsher residency qualifications.

Not so hard in my recent experience... Working in team of EU + non-EU origin people. But tbf, Phds are pretty standard for us.

So many have got sucked into the belt tightening conservative and new-labourite hysteria. If we had a half decent funded HMRC who were able to claw back the minimum amounts of tax that gets avoided it would make a start.

We lose £119 Billion pounds the approximate equivalent of the NHS's budget each year.

www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2014/09/22/new-report-the-tax-gap-is-119-4-billion-and-rising/

But no we making stupid deals with google etc.

I guess the complication is that we would definitely have a limbo period... say it takes almost 4 yrs to negotiate our exit & new status.

In order to exit the UK has to invoke Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty. It limits the period during which we negotiate a mutually acceptable exit with the EU to a maximum of 2 years. We could reach agreement earlier than than. During that period out existing EU trade deals remains. When it ends we either have a new trade deal with the EU or we fall back on other trade deals that are available to us World Trade Organisation, EFTA etc. So there is no 'limbo' as such.

All this time UK still pays into EU as temporary EU members, but EU halts funding back to UK for more than very short term projects because of our uncertain but soon departure date.

No, it cannot do that. If it tried to do that we would just stop paying them our £55m a day.

Any Horizon 2020 applications already prepared are lost causes. Also, the UK govt seems unlikely to fund research that needs true international cooperation, like say, air quality improvement. Whereas EU is keen to fund those types of projects. Scientists would need to secure understandings about promised UK funding if matching funder can be found with international data/collaborators, it's a pain to get research projects going like that

I think the UK has more freedom to influence international efforts to improve environmental quality outside the EU than inside. Out of the UK the UK Govt would have the freedom to use British research money to fund research into whatever improvements globally it is trying to seek. It can choose its own research partners. It can work in partnerships with industries that it choses, rather than on research that the EU chooses. The UK has always led in academic / commercial exploitation of innovation. Like dstl. We have more scope for this if we can determine our own research programme,

HanYOLO

If I was facing a firing squad and knew that if I stayed I'd get shot, whereas if I moved (left) I had a slim chance of surviving. I'd leave.

PigletJohn No, none were from any of the above countries you mentioned. All the patients advised by their doctors to go to the UK specifically for health treatment we see are from Eastern Europe.

Why should the nhs become the euhs? You can't rock up in the States and expect to be treated but you can roll up here with HIV and immediately you're treated, TB is rife now and we'd practically eradicated that so the BCG vaccination was scrapped.

I don't blame each individual for coming, hell if I was in their shoes I'd be doing it too. That doesn't mean we can or should fling the doors open and welcome all comers.

damned either way

1. EU Immigration Minister warns that the EU has 10 days to reduce migrant levels coming into the EU or Schengen will collapse.

1. Morocco suspends contact with the EU over farm trade ruling

1. European Parliament votes for EU-wide arms export embargo against Saudi Arabia (the UK exports £5.6B under a new licence that Cameron issued recently).

1. Greece recalls ambassador from Vienna

The above stories all popped up within the last 9 hours.

As the Spectator notes - at the rate things are going there will not be an EU for us to vote in by June 23rd.

Remember - Staying in the EU is Stronger, Safer, Better.

A collapsed EU would be far more dangerous... no? Staying to help prevent dangerous collapse looks extremely important to me.

lljkk, isn't that a bit arrogant? I'd argue that the EU collapsing would also be great for other countries that shouldn't have been allowed to join in the first place such as Greece.

We're only a few days in and I'm becoming way more afraid of staying in than leaving. I think DC's non negotiations have put us in a far more vulnerable situation if we actually vote to remain than if he hadn't bothered.

The rest of the EU must be pissing themselves laughing about him saying what wonderful reforms he'd negotiated.

To me, voting to remain would mean that we would have to do EXACTLY what the EU wanted without moaning because it can legitimately turn round and say, 'but your people voted to stay, therefore they must agree with what we're doing'.

In a way, whilst I'm glad we've got a chance of a referendum, I think DC has completely screwed things up for the UK. He should have had the balls to ask for way more in the negotiations and if he didn't get them he should have walked away and said whilst he wouldn't campaign for an exit, nor could he recommend staying i.e. stay neutral in the campaign. As it is he looks like an arse and he makes the country look like an arse.

The NHS cannot afford to provide treatment to any of the 400 million EU citizens who may wish to use it. Fact. TheAlchemist was giving you an example of the costs to our NHS of treating migrants of paid anything into the system

Apparently it can according to many posters and I bet they are the first ones to then attack the government for destroying the NHS complain about under funding and attack women for wanting ELC because it costs too much and we cant afford it.

One of the biggest issues with NHS is - the UK is noitoiroulsy poor at looking at credentials for treatment first, as exposed by Panorama a while ago.

Its also shocking at chasing up bills. Whereas other countries are more aggressive on this.

Out, because we are paying for everyone else!

Where did that map come from ? If I read it right, GB is paying out the most, whilst France and Germany are getting the most. Doesn't look right to me.

Personally I am in favour of a bit of wealth redistribution - within the UK, and within Europe, and within the world in general. I think the world would be a much better place if the wealth distribution was much more fairly shared out - with neither fabulously rich, nor the desperately poor.

Yes, I'd like to know the source of that map too.