Why should we stay/leave the EU?

[OhYouLuckyDuck]

What reasons are there for staying or leaving?
I think I will vote for us to stay as I think it might be a moderating influence on any government wanting to do things to extreme plus we will lose trade with Europe if we leave. I'm undecided though.

Yes I agree llljjkk I'd quite like more discussion around politics in the country - I guess they are expensive referendums - but is a good way of educating people themselves about what is going on behind the headlines, people research and read more I should imagine and consider what future they would like for their children.

Anyway I've elected myself to go and cook dinner now... 😀

Another repeated tactic in the leave camp seems to be the personal attack

Before you try to claim the moral high ground here you, were rather unnecessarily critical of my accidental spelling of your name.

Good idea LeavetheRoundabout

There's nothing stimulating about this discussion any longer

LeaveTheRoundAbout

I didn't post the map - someone else did - I queried it because I thought it was misleading. I tracked down the original and commented that it wasn't representative of the actual situation.

I did also link to some data published on the BBC which showed that pro-rata the Luxembourgers and the Dutch pay in the most.

I cannot leave the EU without giving notice and negotiating an exit package with them.

And there will be 27 members of the EU on one side, the UK on the other, and they will all somehow need to agree.

I agree with Leave that "There is risk staying in too. Tying self to sinking ship or cut free and swim."

We should leave now while we still can, regardless of the questionable tactics of some to try to stop us.

The BiscuitIndustry

If we did Brexit I think Norway and Switzerland would also re=examine their own relationship with the EU. Switzerland last year suggested to us we join them in EFTA.

There will be countries that want to keep us on side. Poland is supposed to adopt the euro eventually There is no way they want to do that.
I thin our exit could accelerate the eventual demise of the EU.

The US keeps banging on about us needing to be in the EU as we have a special relationship with the USA, we act as their Point of Contact for EU matters but we also give the EU and the US access to the Commonwealth. This is what everyone keeps forgetting - the Commonwealth.

On 25 Feb 16 the former New Zealand Foreign Minister MP Winston Peters said – “Brexit is a chance to ‘heal a rift’ with the Commonwealth and set up a free trade agreement among Commonwealth countries.

Much more chance of negotiating a good exit package from the EU when we have Commonwealth partners waiting to trade with us.

Your points are very interesting Springing, thank you

We aren't close to most commonwealth countries so it's not so easy to ship goods we make to them so it is not as simple as if we had no customs duties between say Canada and the UK we could use that to replace lost EU trade and if we stayed in the EEA or just EFTA (I think we are currently in both as we are in the EU) then we may not be able to have free trade with them plus free trade with the commonwealth - I seem to remember something about bananas from the ex colonies and the EU rules.

Anyway I am pretty sure we will vote to stay in and all will be well or at least better than if we were to leave.

I like to use analogies by way of thinking about something. Here in the Mumsnet community we are often faced with the situation of someone living with a controlling and overbearing partner. The sort of person who says you may not go out without my permission, who looks through your phone log to find out who you have been talking to and takess away your money then generously gives you some of it... A person living like that clearly needs to leave. But stepping out the door is frightening. Do you live with familiar but abusive sitiation or stand on your own feet? And perhaps they won't have so much cash... except now they don't have a partner taking away their freedom to get a job and earn more money? They hesitate and don't know what to do. The community will support anyone who realises they need to leave.

By a similar token, if we leave Europe, it will be scary for a while. There will be some changes. Some jobe will be lost, but other opportunities will turn up.

I love analogies too and obviously take entirely the opposite view to that one. the UK is a leading player in the EU. if we leave we will still haev to follow their rules but we will have no say. It will be as if we move from being equal partners in a marriage with a very big say to a new baby ordered around by parents with no say at all.

Vote to stay in.

the UK is a leading player in the EU. if we leave we will still haev to follow their rules but we will have no say.

But how much influence do we really have?

Since 1996 Britain has opposed 55 EU directives and was outvoted every time. When votes are taken, Britain has recently been on the losing side more than any other country.

If we leave, we'd regain our seats in the World Trade Organisation and the World Customs Organisation that are currently taken by the EU. Britain is a leading member of NATO, and has a seat on the UN Security Council. We'd regain legal control of tax, economic regulation, our borders, energy and food bills, to name but a few.

I don't want to see us permanently lose our democracy and sovereignty.

So having about a tenth of the members in the European Parliament isn't good enough for you, and you'd prefer to have none?

About half of Britain's trade is with the EU. If we become non-members, we will still have to obey EU regulations to export to them, but will have no voice in framing those regulations.

But stepping out the door is frightening. Do you live with familiar but abusive sitiation or stand on your own feet? And perhaps they won't have so much cash... except now they don't have a partner taking away their freedom to get a job and earn more money? They hesitate and don't know what to do. The community will support anyone who realises they need to leave

Yes yes yes ^

Didn't Boris say on the trade side Britain has minimal input in the EU, cant remember the figure but he said - how on earth can they know whats best for the UK in terms of trade.

Biscuit

"Since 1996 Britain has opposed 55 EU directives and was outvoted every time. When votes are taken, Britain has recently been on the losing side more than any other country"

What is the point !!!! It doesnt matter how many people represent us if we constantly loose out.

It's interesting that you quote Nigel Farrages "55 votes" propaganda.

If you look at his source document, you will see that in the same period, Britain voted "Yes" 2800 times, and "No" 55 times. It would perhaps inconvenient for you to say "Britain got its way 2800 times!"

Looking at the list of matters where Britain was defeated, I have no strong views on whether, for example, amendments to the regulation for the labelling of foodstuffs, the marketing of mineral waters, or the standard quality of sugar beet are matters for which Britain's future within Europe should be abandoned. Do you? Does Nigel Farrage?

biscuit

Since 1996 Britain has opposed 55 EU directives and was outvoted every time. When votes are taken, Britain has recently been on the losing side more than any other country.

There is another way to look at this - we didn't bother to engage in drafting something that would suit us as well as the rest. And then whine when all the other members can agree on something but we can't. Why do we always assume we are right and all the rest of them are wrong ?

I wonder if we really want to throw away a system that ensures our workers get rights, and our environment gets protection. I have a feeling that if all of that was left to our own fabulous governments then market forces would win out to the detriment of both our population and our landscape. Do we really want to work longer hours for less pay, and lower health and safety than most others in the western world ? If there is no greater power to legislate for those things than our own government then I for one am concerned.

Haven't read the whole thread, and apologies if this has already been posted:

www.huffingtonpost.com/rory-fitzgerald/angela-merkel-eu_b_1235889.html

A scary vision of what the EU could look like in 5yrs time according to Mrs Merkel...that's how I will think about when I vote...what do I want the EU to look like in 5-10yrs for my DC - if we leave of course there will be a transition period, but will that be worth it for our own sovereignty in the future...I believe so.

Erbal,

I am 100% certain that Angela did not say "Vision of a Post-democratic Europe"

And I also observe that very few of the words on your link are hers. No doubt there is a reason why there are no quotation marks or other formatting to show who wrote the rest of that claptrap.

Since 1985 I have been quite heavily involved with EU directives. We make a huge input into their drafting. The UK is often one of the few EU states who is particularly interested in some of them. For example we are agreeing one at present on trade secrets. If we leave we still trade with the EU (unless we want to impoverish the nation) but have no say in the laws.

For those of you in the left (not me) do remember that much of the protection workers have from minimum hours under the working time directive to much of our equality legislation comes from EU legislation

DG - you and I are from the same political persuasion..but probably have different views on this. I realise that you make a lot of money drafting EU legislation/directives - who would vote to cut off their own income stream!

The EU working time directive - Ha! I had to sign an opt out as soon as it came into force!

Piglet - really sorry that article didn't say what you wanted it to say. I like to read views from all sides of the spectrum and everyone's input, so was sharing as Huff Post is not as mainstream as some of the newspapers.

Erbal

The EU working time directive - Ha! I had to sign an opt out as soon as it came into force!

That was one of those concessions our government "won" - the right to force workers to sign away their rights. That was the EU's idea - it was our government's idea.

From your tone it seems you would rather not have had to do that.

That wasn't the EU's idea ...

To clarify - only in the UK do we have the privilege to be required by our employers to sign away our right to 48 hours max working week (and other rights).

Im curious on what other European countries think about a Brexit.

Erbal, not really. I will gain most money if we leavce actually. Loads. Lots of my work is not related to the EU anyway never mind all the extra I would get if we do leave. So I am certainly not voting with my work hat on in wanting us to stay in.

The important other nations don't want us to go. They agree we are better together and in my view it means less chance we will end up with a WWIII and a generation of Europeans fighting each other. Mine is the first generation not to suffer a major war in Europe. I don't want my children's to be the next one subject to one. Leaving the EU would increase that chance.

Erbal "...I realise that you make a lot of money..."

An unwarranted slur.