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Women's safety in Europe after Cologne

999 replies

DavidTCDaviesMP · 08/02/2016 09:38

I have been invited onto Mumsnet to discuss the situation for women in Europe following the attacks in Cologne, and the challenge we face in Europe in trying to help millions of mainly young men, who are arriving in Europe from cultures which treat women very differently. I believe this is an issue which needs open discussion by political leaders yet is swept under the carpet. David Davies MP

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Pangurban1 · 09/02/2016 10:48

www.ft.com/cms/s/0/775235c8-b834-11e5-bf7e-8a339b6f2164.html#axzz3zfK5azZ2

The cover ups are very worrying. I wonder why assailants backgrounds are hidden in reports. I read somewhere that a Swedish university report which showed that women of all backgrounds had a similar different chance of being sexually assaulted but the background of the rapists was not gone into. If it is, say, 10 times more likely, that is significant. Why is the victim's background mentioned and not the assailant.

Again, the police said that it was peaceful in Stockholm.

In the light of all the cover-ups, I am not surprised that the target of leaflets are not publicised. I presume the leaflets are ostensibly aimed at everyone. I don't think the background of any attackers should be hidden. However, this may not be publicised as it could reveal that some people may have a much higher propensity to commit the crimes. Surely, it would just show how all men have similar rates of offending if that is the case. I don't know why this would be done if there is nothing to hide. The same way politicians, police and the media tried to hide the mass sexual assaults.

sportinguista · 09/02/2016 11:08

Just a quick question, why was it only in 2013 that these posters etc were deemed necessary? Why not years before say in the 1990's?

My pool does not have any of these posters, just ones about not letting non swimmers jump in the deep end, so clearly we're all able to behave ourselves here.

Why did it become a problem suddenly at a certain date? I imagine migration was happening to Germany pre-2015, just not at the rate of now. So did the problems start earlier but have only been exacerbated recently.

I know there were posters years ago about not snogging and getting frisky in the pool but it was usually the assumption that both parties were consenting back then!

CatchAPlaneToBarcelona · 09/02/2016 11:51

I vaguely know a young man who came to the UK as a child of about 9 from a war torn Muslim country. He has a pretty harrowing backstory, mother died, father not in the picture although apparently alive, and he was placed in care in the UK and is now about 25. I have met him several times and he has always struck me as a very polite and decent young man, doesn't drink etc.

I recently found out he'd been sent to prison and without probing too much I got the impression that he had possibly assaulted his girlfriend, although I can't be 100% sure.

Imagine my disappointment, on top of that, to see this post on his facebook page recently:

'If I had daughter nd she was goin out in this weather half naked I wud fly kick er in the face nd not let er out of the house till she learns to not dress like a slag again'

And this is a young Muslim man who has spent all but his earliest years in the UK. And all his other posts are about how he is thankful every day to Allah for the life he has now, how he wants to work hard and get on, 'Fear no-one but God' ''Only god can judge me' etc. etc.

This is how an apparently decent, god-fearing hard working Muslim boy who is polite humble when you speak to him, this up there is how he really feels about women. Tragic, isn't it?

TheNewStatesman · 09/02/2016 11:54

Mmmm, yes, a starting date of 2013 does look rather damning. The crisis did not start suddenly from zero in 2015; it was on an upward trend for years before that.

Although to be fair, there were "No Petting" posters in the swimming pool when I grew up.... the picture suggested that it was consensual jollies that they were talking about, rather than unwanted harassment.

CatchAPlaneToBarcelona · 09/02/2016 12:05

What is the direct translation on that poster though? The picture is different to the old fashioned 'No petting' which always implied that it was a mutual consensual act, showing a couple cuddling and smiling at one another.

In start contrast to this picture, where the woman is turned away and the man's hand is outstretched towards her bottom. That looks very much like 'no uninvited groping' message to me.

A subtle but important difference I think.

BrittEkland · 09/02/2016 12:25

CatchaPlane ..... Yes, it is tragic and there is little we can do about those men either born in the UK or who came here at a young age. But he has clearly been hanging out with boys who want to be hard, and what is easier than dominating girls. He says he would fly kick his daughter, if he had one, if she did not dress modestly enough. Dreadful.

So we have Muslim men who want to control and dominate their women aggressively, especially in how they dress. And we also have the Black gangsta culture who do not want their women to dress modestly, but do want to control and dominate nevertheless, and keep many women on the go purely for their sexual gratification. Very similar shit, in that both cultures see women as worthless and disposable.

With the latter group, though, women do not have to put up with this bad behaviour but they do - for the group prestige, for the few trinkets he might throw their way and also the nightclub and drug scene seems to fascinate the women.

The losers are going to be those women (as we have here on MN) who cannot abide cruelty and domination, who have some education, critical thinking and can get by financially by themselves. Because we will not ally ourselves to any scumbag within our without a relationship, we will be the ones who will have the run the gauntlet of dress code slowly but surely being changed for us, and our vistas will shrink because even if you travel overseas where would it be different? Deeply misogynistic men, primarily from ME-NA, have ensured that they move to and settle in every nation.

BrittEkland · 09/02/2016 14:17

In an effort to lighten the mood on here, take a look at this link. It's the control & domination that even hairdressers exercise over wimmin. It's all choreographed beautifully.

www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-3436301/How-stop-hairdresser-humiliating-Novelist-Marian-Keyes-presents-survival-guide-woman-relate-to.html

I do not wait. My GP once kept me waiting 55 mins past my appt time, so I just left. I dont know when she actually buzzed me in. That is just insolent behaviour as far as I am concerned, and the receptionists are too scared to check in with the doctor to say your next pt has been waiting a long time.

ItsJustaUsername · 09/02/2016 14:45

Well if these posters were introduced in 2013 I'm sure it has nothing whatsoever to do with the sharp rise in immigration in 2013.
From this article www.thelocal.de/20141114/germany-is-an-immigration-country-stats

In the year 2013, the data showed that the migrant population in Germany grew by 3.8 percent, making it "the largest increase over the previous years" since the survey began in 2005, the Federal Statistics Office noted

As for those still in denial this is a rather gruesome little catalogue of violent sex attacks committed by migrants, many on refugees.

www.linkedin.com/pulse/germany-migrants-rape-epidemic-we-biggest-brothel-munich-author

AMouseLivedinaWindMill · 09/02/2016 14:54

This is how an apparently decent, god-fearing hard working Muslim boy who is polite humble when you speak to him, this up there is how he really feels about women

Shocking but you would meet my DF = uber polite, charming intelligent man..no issues with women doing anything - working, most certainly encouraged us to uni...all normal...all well. but scratch the surface and he has a large misogynistic streak in him, its just nothing to do with classic areas like education etc.

so it doesn't surprise me!

Mistigri · 09/02/2016 15:15

My GP once kept me waiting 55 mins past my appt time, so I just left. I dont know when she actually buzzed me in. That is just insolent behaviour as far as I am concerned

Wow. Tell me you're joking ... ? And people think that immigrants are the problem.

larazopf · 09/02/2016 15:32

I have been thinking a lot about these issues over the last few weeks.

The number of men from cultures where women have few rights, have little education and depend on men to put bread and butter on the table and who are used to having unquestioned power over women is rising in Europe.

These men are much more likely to mistreat women as there are few repercussions for doing so, they may even be applauded for it. In macho cultures (where male dominance is idealised) it is even expected of men to dominate women, control and hurt them.

it can only go one of two ways.
1.we close our borders and only let in hand picked 'desirable' and highly vulnerable asylum seekers. not sure how realistic.

  1. we go with the flow, merge with Islamic / ME / NA cultures as it seems to be happening now anyway but we begin a new powerful global movement of women's rights. This would throw us back to pre ww1 though.

what must not happen is to ignore the challenge of western and islamic futures merging. We are not the same and there will be power battles over who gets to choose who society works overall.

Palebluedotty · 09/02/2016 15:32

Doesn't surprise me either. Misogyny is the oldest prejudice. I think the surprise is that some cultures have managed to get as far as they have in trying to shake it off.

There was a great but scary quote on one of the other threads. Something to do with how people create moral codes that justify they way they want to act, and then create legal codes to authorise it. The desire to control women comes first, the justification (legal, religious, moral) for why it's OK comes afterwards.

BrittEkland · 09/02/2016 16:52

Palebluedotty It might have been this that I posted previously:

"When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that justifies it."
-Frederic Bastiat (1801-1850)

Palebluedotty · 09/02/2016 17:03

That's the one! Thanks Britt. I think one could substitute any prejudice in place of the word 'plunder' and it works.

ItsJustaUsername · 09/02/2016 17:31

Gang rape in Lancashire.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lancashire-35526143
Anyone else think it's a bit odd there's no description of these attackers being released? Usually in the case of assault or rape the first thing the police do is issue a description of the perpetrator, no?

BrittEkland · 09/02/2016 17:41

The victim's family should spill the beans to the press with a full description. I would, if that were my daughter. Though of course the newspaper may have been sat on as well, or as someone said on this thread, some journalists do suppress some stories "for their own agenda".

LumelaMme · 09/02/2016 17:51

The poor woman was grabbed from behind and it was dark: we don't know how much she saw. I am reluctant to jump to conclusions and make assumptions.

If the police think they know who committed this offence, they might not want a description circulated: it might alert the guilty parties that the police are after them (and I hope they catch them).

Assuming that identities are being covered up because the men 'must be' Asian is racist. Wondering if and why identities are being covered up is not.

ItsJustaUsername · 09/02/2016 18:15

I'm not assuming anything, just came across the story and found it odd there were no descriptions. There was a rape near me recently and the first thing the police did was issue a description of the attacker, as is usual. Time will tell I guess.

LumelaMme · 09/02/2016 18:56

Fair dos, Just. I only hope they nab the bastards who did it.

emilybohemia · 09/02/2016 21:02

No Britt, women don't put up with abuse for 'trinkets.' It's rather more complex than that.

Abuse is not confined to Muslims or black gangsta culture either is it?I've heard a lot of white young men refer to women as 'slags.' Teenage girls are the group at most risk from sexual violence. The impact of misogynistic rap lyrics and violent films could be important, but this abuse isn't just happening to girls in gangs. It happens to teenagers of all backgrounds.

TheNewStatesman · 09/02/2016 23:09

I'm starting to feel like a stuck record here.

NOBODY IS SAYING THAT MISOGYNY DOES NOT EXIST IN WESTERN CULTURE.

WE ARE SAYING THAT IT IS MORE OF AN ISSUE IN SOME CULTURES THAN IN OTHERS.

NOBODY IS SAYING THAT MISOGYNY DOES NOT EXIST IN WESTERN CULTURE.

WE ARE SAYING THAT IT IS MORE OF AN ISSUE IN SOME CULTURES THAN IN OTHERS.

NOBODY IS SAYING THAT MISOGYNY DOES NOT EXIST IN WESTERN CULTURE.

WE ARE SAYING THAT IT IS MORE OF AN ISSUE IN SOME CULTURES THAN IN OTHERS.

Apologies for the all caps and repetitions, but Christ on a pogo stick, what do you do when someone is being so obtuse?

emilybohemia · 09/02/2016 23:17

Newstatesmen, you are saying it is more of an issue in some cultures than others with very shaky evidence and very little knowledge of those cultures in order to make such assertions, apart from 'Muslims'.

emilybohemia · 09/02/2016 23:24

The highest number of foreign criminals in UK prisons are from Poland. Why no concern about Polish immigrants?

Pangurban1 · 09/02/2016 23:46

It is very interesting what happens to teenagers of different backgrounds is researched. However, the backgrounds of the assailants is certainly equally if not more important and should never be covered up. All the better to identify and target and nip the problem in the bud.

The women in cologne were in full knowledge of who formed the mass sex attacks against them. There was no lack of knowledge there. The problem is when this is known, it is covered up. If something like this happens in a public area in full view of the police, and is reported by them and treated by the media as if nothing took place, then goodness knows the frequency or severity of what really goes on and is very easily covered up. And does get hushed up as we now know.

Very little publicity and a lot of cover up has been the course of action by police, politicians and media. Of course, the aim was to reveal as little knowledge to the public as possible even if outrageously diminishing the victims and depriving them of their rights. Same as in the Stockholm concert.

Saw the piece from Simon Reeves in Greece where the men had abandoned the woman carrying the boy who may have been dehydrated and had heatstroke. And the issue for them was that they had not asked the arseholes' 'permission' to travel in the car. Women's lives would be so much more decent without yokes like that (literally).

Moreshabbythanchic · 10/02/2016 00:05

Emily The highest number of foreign criminals in UK prisons are from Poland. Can you show some proof of that or is that another of your imaginary slurs?