Women's safety in Europe after Cologne

[DavidTCDaviesMP]

I have been invited onto Mumsnet to discuss the situation for women in Europe following the attacks in Cologne, and the challenge we face in Europe in trying to help millions of mainly young men, who are arriving in Europe from cultures which treat women very differently. I believe this is an issue which needs open discussion by political leaders yet is swept under the carpet. David Davies MP

Zen habits sorry!

That's very ungracious of you Emily . Not only do I think that you're cataclysmicly wrong headed in your views and opinions, now I know you're incredibly rude and unable to accept a genuinely offered apology. I withdraw my bouquet of flowers!

Immigration has some good points and bad points, like everything else (I quite resent Bill's insinuation that public sector service employees do not contribute to society: go back to the stone age without us if you like ! Also Keynesian economics is a provably useful tool - any poor person can tell you unhesitatingly that you need money to breed money). They make life culturally more interesting, especially in island Britain, and in certain circumstances do indeed contribute to the economy. They do that in part because we haven't born the costs of training them, so the point about brain drains from other parts of the world is valid. Probably some of our own brain drain balances. But there is a bottom line, which is simply that Britain is overpopulated, the world is overpopulated, and who do we have most responsibility to protect - our own poorest or other people's? It's the extremely rich sucking resources out of the world which we can't afford. I don't count Britain's poorest among those people.

Come on, this is tiresome emily. It's just the same old 'Anybody who doesn't agree with me is a racist'. You seem to be of the opinion that anybody who has concerns about migration is far right. But that's most of the country including many Labour voters. And it's symptomatic of your general refusal to engage with any valid concerns that anybody might raise.

If you believe that there are posters on here who are espousing far right views then report them to Mumsnet. Oh hang on, you probably already have and Mumsnet ignored you because you're clearly talking tosh.

Now emily I will ask again. Will you please answer some of the questions you've ignored. Please give me that list of countries.

Also to bring us back to the point, some cultures have interesting ideas to contribute. Others have less. The problem with Islam is that in its extreme form it does directly conflict with women's equality. Why is that so hard to accept for some people? I found that BBC report about bored Algerians coming here effectively for the social life very interesting. They don't want to allow their own women any freedoms, but believe that those here will be just desperate to throw themselves at their feet.

Bungo i like your posts too.

As bungo says the difficult issue is whom do we help - our own poor or the hugely larger and worse off number abroad? It's never been easy, even the issue of when we put our own family above others. Difficult decisions every day for nations and families. We cannot have everyone who wants to live in the UK living here as we cannot support that. We have few homes where there are jobs for a start. I am fairly pro immigration particularly of educated non sexist hard working people who will draw no benefits and they are out there. Those are the ones we encourage.

Bungo, Keynsian economics is far from an undisputed fount of truth.

And public sector workers, unless you're including niche sector workers like HE (which are barely classes as public anymore anyway) they're not income generating employees. That's not to say that they're not vital, but to pretend that expanding public sector workers brings in cash to the economy rather than debt is not true. Also, I know that public sector workers pay taxes and spend money: but they never pay more tax than they take out on wages.

I thought this was another post with strange stereotypes in it, Grace,

'If we require more eg doctors then we need to increase the numbers within our own medical schools - not rob these highly-prized individuals from their own regions.

What we so not need are another ten chicken shops in every high street'.

I think immigrants do other things than only opening 'chicken shops.' They do all sorts of jobs. Also, the state of high streets is not only down to immigrants.

Lumela, as I said before, why not stick to what I actually said, not what the Queen may say. I've never heard the Queen speaking about her worries that immigration may harm the countryside. I compared your worry about that to some rhetoric that the far right use. Why not critique that rather than comments about the Queen?

Do you think 'mindfulness' could help the people stating they think I have mental health problems yesterday, sporting?

The 'rhetoric that the far right might use' that accuse me of spouting looks exactly like the quotes I posted from the well-known Neo-Nazi body, the Council for the Protection of Rural England which says that population growth is 'the elephant in the room'.

The Queen is the Patron of the CPRE.

So my critique of what you said - that my worries about the countryside sound like something the far right might say - was to refer you to the CPRE. Which said pretty much exactly the same thing I said. The only thing it didn't do was to relate population growth to immigration, but net immigration is a major driver of population growth in the UK at the moment, so it hardly needed saying.

The CPRE are Brownshirts. Who knew?

Goodness, Emily, can't you understand that Sporting was trying to reach out and be nice??! You lash out and, funnily enough, it doesn't go down well except that several people have risen above this, as Sporting did, to try and be the better person.

It's also derailing a valuable discussion which needs to be had.

Agree with Bill re the immigration is a good thing you tube clip...(actually bollocks sprung to mind a lot!) was going to go through it point by point but honestly can't be bothered...
I think Emily you need to develop some critical thinking (sadly lacking in education from what I can make out in recent years)
two Egs (and paraphrasing a bit)

"some people worry that there immigration deprives their child of a school place
but most immigrants are single,
However if they stay for a while they will have children
but most immigrant children do well in school and benefit other students"
Can you see the obvious problem with that?
(what about lack of school places? Why does the fact they have stayed for a while before having children change the fact if you have more people you have more children, you need more school places? Why does it matter how well those extra children do at school?)

"Then some people think immigration only benefits London ....but London being successful benefits the rest of the UK"...
wooah ...hang on a minute...who says immigration benefits London? how does immigration benefit London? How does the fact that there is no housing and it is overcrowded benefit anyone? That demand outstrips supply so much that most people can't afford to rent there, never mind buy ...

What utter tosh...

'The only thing it didn't do was to relate population growth to immigration, but net immigration is a major driver of population growth in the UK at the moment, so it hardly needed saying'.

Exactly. Probably not because 'it hardly needed saying' but because of the connotations implicit in that kind of statement. They DIDN'T say what YOU said. Why not concentrate on your on statement instead of irrelevant ones?

Helena

Bill, no Keynesian economics is not an undisputed fount of truth, but it is a useful tool. I generally like to have more than one tool in a kit. And public sector workers don't generate income? Perhaps not directly, but, eg, you need education for economic gain and that needs educators. A lot of private sector areas rely on public sector institutions to build their income-generating potential. Schools are obvious. My area before it was destroyed was libraries, and we're seeing how the publishing sector is becoming more impoverished without us. But I can go on forever about that. Generally the public sector has the potential to be a lot better at managing affairs of public concern than the private because the latter favours elite interests rather than the whole.

Moving, it seemed kindly meant. I am just bemused that it was directed to me with mention of my unspecified 'demons', when a number of posters behaved quite nastily yesterday but receieved no such advice.

Just checking in to pick up the list of Islamic safe-havens - any sign of it yet?

Grace I admire your persistence

Unlucky, critical thinking is not blaming immigrants for taking school places, rather than pointing to the fact that the government need to spend more money on education.

No, critical thinking is carefully weighing up the arguments and evidence for them on both sides before coming to a considered view.

How many more times Emily where is the money coming from?

Where is the housing going to come from emily? The jobs? The healthcare?

The CPRE on population:
I regret that we were not bolder eight or ten years ago in pointing out the consequences for land use of the then Government’s growth-driven support for higher immigration. Part of the problem was that the Government did not acknowledge that it was rapidly increasing the country’s population – possibly it did not fully realise that it was doing so. But we should have spoken out and said ‘if you pursue this policy, we will need more houses, more energy, more food etc.’
Bastard Brownshirt CPRE.

It was meant kindly, I just thought you might find it interesting, it helped me through some very tough times and still does, as I said I suffered mental health issues. It is just a very good website. I'm not perfect none of us are, we're not pretending to be that. You seemed like you had gone through some tough times and might appreciate the message of the site.

I'm not going to rise to it if you want to attack me. It's your personal choice to see it that way, you are an individual, no one can force you to do anything you do not wish to.

You do however have my best wishes for making the very best life for yourself that you can. Every person in this thread has that too. Blessed be.