Women's safety in Europe after Cologne

[DavidTCDaviesMP]

I have been invited onto Mumsnet to discuss the situation for women in Europe following the attacks in Cologne, and the challenge we face in Europe in trying to help millions of mainly young men, who are arriving in Europe from cultures which treat women very differently. I believe this is an issue which needs open discussion by political leaders yet is swept under the carpet. David Davies MP

Paleblue I have to admit I'm amazed the BBC reported that - especially this bit: He admits his situation is far from desperate. He has a job, albeit a low paid one, as a security guard and a roof over his head

Interesting, thanks Paleblue. www.jrf.org.uk/report/white-working-class-views-neighbourhood-cohesion-and-change

I like this style of writing because it includes interviews and quotes from people. Susan Brownmiller who wrote “Against Our Will” in 1975 sets out most of her book in that way. The words are from the raped women themselves, and they spoke about how they feel (not how they should feel according to some step-by-step recovery program).

In the UK the white working class were thrown under the bus decades ago, and I would imagine seeing their words in print is anathema to the regressive Left. That’s why w-w-c were sat upon to shut them up.

I also love the oral and written history of the late Studs Terkel. It is important to hear opinions from everyone with their words, not just the usual talking heads who seem to be on every TV executive’s redial to for a TV or radio appearance. People do grieve for change or loss of their neighbourhood – why is that so despised by some on this thread?

'Yes they can, most of Eastern Europe has declined, mainly because they quite simply do not have the funds to manage this influx. There is of course a dose of xenophobia there as well, remember the countries of the ex soviet bloc did not have any sort of immigration, never had colonies, plus with the isolation of the soviet period they were quite insular. Before Paris Poland had reluctantly agreed to take Syrian Christians only iirc'.

Izlet, it's more than a 'dose of xenophobia, much more. The refusal to accept quotas is linked to the xenopobia not to financial concerns. The numbers on the quota were very low and the level of anti Muslim hysteria quite out of proportion.

'did not have any sort of immigration'

Yes they did, Vietnamese refugees and Romani immigrants for starters.

dotty Interesting link, thanks.

"What is the point of making it to Paris if you are going to live a miserable hand-to-mouth existence selling contraband cigarettes on the street? You can create your own dream here, in your own village. You just need to think differently."

This points up two things which I have felt for a long time:

1. Would-be migrants often have expectations which are unlikely to be met if they do get to Europe. This is partly due to what they see in the media, but also because of the mixed messages from migrants already in Europe. They see family members coming home in the summer in big cars, with lots of presents for everyone, and assume that they are wealthy. In fact those family members are themselves prisoners of a situation in which they have to maintain a display of generosity when they return to their home countries, so as not to lose face. (If you can't afford the display one year, you don't come back until you can.) When people who have already emigrated talk about France or Italy or wherever, they will emphasise the positives. It gives them a status in their home communities which they don't have in the countries to which they have emigrated. They may not want to talk about the difficulties, the fact that unemployment is rising and that they may be out of work for several months in the year, for instance.

I don't know what can be done to give people a more realistic idea of the conditions they are likely to encounter if they do find themselves in Europe as illegal immigrants.

1. Many young men and women do stay in their home countries and work hard to improve their own lives, and sometimes also to improve life for others. I don't know about Algeria but I know that in Morocco there are a lot of "civil society" organisations working for human rights, solidarity with the poor, etc.

Unfortunately the "harragas" seem to compose a subset of young males who find the risks involved in getting to Europe more appealing than hard work.

The whole "people don't put themselves in danger unless they're desperate" argument, when applied to young male migrants, was always ridiculous. Young men put themselves in danger all the time, for fun, in our societies. It is a part of their psyche, for many young men, and always has been.

Grace, I never said I was adopted by kind and loving parents. I wasn't. The abuse continued. Unfotunately not all adoptive parents fit that description. I did state that the situations are very different, but what I stressed is that children from damaged backgrounds can benefit from being adopted. In principle, children that have experienced violence or abuse can benefit from a family. These days, adoptive parents are screened very strictly and I think being integrated into a home can be the best thing. It is hard though.

Emma Thompson didn't officially 'adopt' him, I think, so I have no idea what procedures they went through. It sounds like a very positive outcome for the young man and for their family.

'The working classes were fed to the lions long ago' - and with globalisation the lines have become blurred.'

Of course they have, for years, but as a white working class person, I see where that comes from and I don't feel angry with immigrants. I feel angry when I see ow previous governements pretty much declared war on ordinary people. When ordinary people blame immigrants, I don't get it. Do they think they have more in common now with George Osbourne than with a cleaner from Romania?

'tbh I was a bit confused by her statement - is it the working-class who are racist or the middle-class'

I think both, don't you? I don't think it's confined to one class or to people lacking intelligence. If you watch Tommy Robinson speak, he's quite bright. Sadly, what he comes out with is flawed.

'My relatives (by marriage) see slums with people who don't work, sewage backing up in the pipes because the infrastructure built in victorian times wasn't designed to house that many people (and their waste), they see wheelie bins overflowing and rubbish in the streets. They're not seeing cultural enrichment'.

I suppose it is easier to point the finger than to realise these are complex social problems.

I'm sorry to hear about your problems and that you experience anxiety. That must be really hard.

Thanks, Twisted.

'Children who have been soldiers are not beyond the understanding of people who are used to helping very abused and neglected children. There are already services set up for them that have been around for years. There should be much more money put into child mental health and social care. The woeful shortage has nothing to do with refugees. The under funding and cuts need to be protested against and addressed, not used as a reason not to help refugee children'.

It is divide and rule, sadly. People turn against others and the vulnerable in their society, instead of being angry with the government.

I think that is what I was trying to say about the child soldier. He wasn't beyond help.

I found it interesting that after I highlighted what I percieved to be parallels with far right rhetoric and was then ridiculed yesterday, that january then posted a clip from someone that defends the EDL and other far right groups.

I shouldn't have said 'sheep' to you Sporting, I am sorry for saying that and you were very polite last night and genuine in what you said. I think concern for me might be better directed at people posting clips from Roosh V Lite anti women and anti feminist youtubers.

Mave, thanks very much for your kind words. I think you and others make important points on how people suffer because of austerity and cuts. I think frustration is completely understandable. It is the argument that immigrants place a further strain that I find flawed. It seems wrong to blame them for what the government does and restricting immigrants may actually harm the economy.

"blame them for what the government does and restricting immigrants may actually harm the economy".

HOW is it to be paid for? These immigrants will not contribute to the money pot for many years. Who can pay?

Thank you re: anxiety - although anxiety is merely a trigger for the really ugly stuff. I'm sorry you went from frying pan to fire - life is not easy (for any of us).

Sorry paleblue for taking you literally.

So, emily once again, do you think we can continue to increase the population of the UK indefinitely?

Not I admit that I know the maximum capacity of our potential food supply, but we're certainly at the limit of our housing capacity at the moment. And expansion of that will probably be at the expense of food supply.

There is an immense amount of money locked up with wealthy individuals and companies, which they are increasingly refusing to share with those of us here they exploit to make it. They do expect the poorest to budge up, make room and share their resources even when they're on the edge of survival, but won't do so themselves.

We've been quite derailed from the original topic - but to swing back to that (probably briefly), where's emily's list of Islamic countries where it's safe to be a woman, child or gay person?

bungo ... and then will we civil war? Blamed upon the racists of course.

This entire topic is very hard to discuss because it is about more than western women's right to walk home un-raped after a night out. As I said in a previous post - cause and effect.

Sorry for derail. Reverting to lurking!

emily, I'm very sorry you had such a bad experience. But that's not what this thread is about and it's really not the place for it. Perhaps you might want to start a thread over on relationships?

It just rather derails the thread and isn't very relevant.

Back on topic: Have you had chance to think about answering any of the questions you were asked yesterday but didn't answer? I see you haven't got round to it yet but are finding all sorts of new people to call xenophobic and racist. The whole of Eastern Europe for example.

Nooooo bungo - not saying you are solely responsible for any de-railing! These threads were of course initiated in response to our collective outrage about Cologne (et al) - but of course there is far more to the problem than that one incident.

I said weeks ago she hates the Polish! She's got a real axe to grind there.

emily
It is the argument that immigrants place a further strain that I find flawed. It seems wrong to blame them for what the government does and restricting immigrants may actually harm the economy.
Can you not see that the money to support these people HAS to come from somewhere? They need to be housed, fed, educated, supported. They are using revenue and not contributing - at least initially...probably not for many years.
(Actually especially ones from misogynistic cultures - with the attitude that women are not allowed to work. And who often have low paid work. Someone up thread mentioned tax credits so women could stay at home - now that would be an interesting statistic...)
And I will remind you as a country we are running at a deficit...

What Sonya said is so true
Supporting people in the most expensive countries to live in is the least cost effective use of funds.
I had a friend who was collecting money to install heating in an orphanage in India of which she was a trustee. They needed £160 to do it... how much would similar have cost here? Thousands...

Bill, I think it is the place for it when people are discussing the placing of children from damaged backgrounds in homes in the UK. Grace, I think, discussed Emma Thompson's adoption and I responded. I am sorry that you think people expressing sympathy for me is misplaced on this thread.

Bungo,

'There is an immense amount of money locked up with wealthy individuals and companies, which they are increasingly refusing to share with those of us here they exploit to make it. They do expect the poorest to budge up, make room and share their resources even when they're on the edge of survival, but won't do so themselves'.

This is the problem is it not?

'I said weeks ago she hates the Polish! grin She's got a real axe to grind there'.

'She' doesn't hate the Polish. 'She' recognises that Poland has an increasingly undemocratic government that restricts press freedom and democracy, plays on populist xenophobic sentiments and has a growing far right movement. Someone posted an article yesterday of the Polish newspaper cover which says it all really. 'She' recognises in the Polish PM's speech that migrants will carry diseases, the dangerous, dehumanising language of the past.

Bill, saying I said the 'whole of Eastern Europe' is not sticking to facts really is it? I argued there is a heftier dose than the one a previousposter suggested. When Zeman, the Czech PRESIDENT, stands publicly with a proponent of concentration camps, I think that confirms more than a dose. It's like Cameron publicly sharing a platform with Britain First.

I know the whole of Eastern Europe are not xenopobic as I see them sharing my fears and fighting against it.

It is estimated that migrants to Britain make an estimated £20bn annual contribution towards government finances. If you cut migration, you cut this money Bungo.

I think understanding on this thread of the social economic effects of immigration could be improved. This video is quite helpful.

Apology accepted emily, but please try and be thoughtful about what you say to others, as my grandmother used to say, if you cannot say anything kind don't say it at all.

I've not had time to look at any of the you tube clips, it being half term and I also have a business to run so that takes priority at the moment.

I do see what you're saying about cuts from central government and the prioritising of money but the government do have finite resources. I live in one of the councils that has seen some of the largest cuts from central government. The cuts to our neighbourhood are affecting not just white working class, but 2/3/4 gen migrants and those recently arrived equally. I know one of the PCSO's and they just cannot keep up with it all. Everybody is complaining even when they do their best it's not enough.

Big business are to blame too. DH's employer are a very large well known business which like to portray a caring face to the general public (if you spotted me mentioning where I live you will be able to guess who I mean). They have made many changes to the contracts people are on grinding down their terms of pay etc. So much so that some of DH's colleagues are working fulltime yet still having to use foodbanks (these are migrants and also native British, and they do have children). He feels so guilty as he is on an old contract that they have not yet tried to change (they are trying to make people get so fed up they leave though). So the rich do need to take a long hard look at themselves...

I won't be back to post possibly as I now have to get motoring to get things approved and off to print before 5.

"restricting immigrants may actually harm the economy".

Restricting immigrants will not cause harm to the economy. The UK may continue to need high-end or specialist workers though. We have 1.7 million unemployed. Those who genuinely want to work cannot find work because there are insufficient vacancies. A barometer of how well a country is doing is to look at your own high street and count the household names who are either shutting branches or completely closing operations in England.

Sporting, 'Apology accepted emily, but please try and be thoughtful about what you say to others, as my grandmother used to say, if you cannot say anything kind don't say it at all'.

Perhaps your comment should also be directed at those taunting about mental health, including tying my arms to my sides, then.

'Restricting immigrants will not cause harm to the economy'.

It certainly would be harmful. For example, if you take all EU migrant orkers away, what do you think the effects will be Britt?

It's an hour long and the sound quality isn't great, but it's a very good discussion, featuring Nick Cohen, about the regressive left. I sat there nodding along like a Churchill's dog on the parcel shelf of a car, agreeing with almost every word.

It applies to everybody, but I think people got a touch frustrated with your attacks upon them. I too have finite tolerance, but I maybe have touch more patience.

As long as we keep bringing in high quality high skilled migrants in I think we'll be okay.

I don't think losing low skilled EU workers would make that much difference. It would probably force a lot of jobs to pay better wages. We might lose some jobs, but they would generally be ultra low paid jobs in ultra low tax paying companies who bring very little to the economy for people other than their shareholders.

If we require more eg doctors then we need to increase the numbers within our own medical schools - not rob these highly-prized individuals from their own regions.

What we so not need are another ten chicken shops in every high street.

Emily - I bet you 1000 quid that there's no English-speaking heart surgeon scaling fences in Calais.

Migrants (aside the aforementioned highly-skilled professional) do NOT contribute financially and it his highly disingenuous to insist that it is true.

I saw a banksy cartoon doing the rounds a few months ago about Steve jobs - being the son of a Syrian migrant. A misogynistic cunt who had managed to make highly-skilled tech engineers minimum wage shop-assistants going by the tag of "genius", who once employed only 8 (!) high level execs in California, used Chinese slave labour factories and the minerals used in the screens of his iconic aspirational products are mined by children under armed guard in the Congo et al. There is always more to a story than popular media would suggest.

Remove the scabs.

I never said "take all EU migrant workers away".

I said "restricting immigrants will not cause harm to the economy." I did not specify EU ones either.

I think implying someone has mental health problems was a step up from any comment I made. 'Frustration' isn't an excuse for bullying like that, sporting.

Grace, it isn't disingenuous at all. Do you think the clip I posted with facts included is disingenuous? It backs up what I said.

There are skilled people in Calais. I wouldn't be at all surprised if a surgeon was amongst them, but migrants to the UK contribute by doing all sorts of jobs, not just the highly prized.

You seem very reluctant to discuss the benefits of immigration. Do you think there aren't any?