Women's safety in Europe after Cologne

[DavidTCDaviesMP]

I have been invited onto Mumsnet to discuss the situation for women in Europe following the attacks in Cologne, and the challenge we face in Europe in trying to help millions of mainly young men, who are arriving in Europe from cultures which treat women very differently. I believe this is an issue which needs open discussion by political leaders yet is swept under the carpet. David Davies MP

coldwatebay I'm sorry to hear it sounds as though you have first hand experience.

cellar If I remember correctly, the people whose families had been trashed were threatened with the cry of raaaaaaaacist and it's all been swept nicely under the carpet. But apparently there are huge strains upon the social services of Kent (particularly medway towns???).

Report me Lumela, some far right stuff has come from you too. On the BNP website they declare Britain to be full, that services are being stretched by immigrants, that they fear identity in Britain to be disappearing. V similar content on this thread.

I get the sense that Emily is one of those 'principled' people who gets all outraged about people not adopting child soldiers but who herself would never in a million years foster or adopt any child, no matter what their background.This as she is wasting away all her precious energy and timeas a keyboard warrior picking apart lines of digital letters and telling people off: "You naughty xenophobe! Go to time out now" All the negativity she is seeking on this thread and coming back for more seems a little bit concerning. I'm saying negativity not because the thread is negative, on the contrary, but because she engages with people here in a way that alienates her from everyone, that makes me a little bit sad for her.

There may be some issues, maybe lack of social skills coupled with a few other things... Well lack of 'netiquette' for sure.

Also Emily should get her terminology right, especially as someone interested in the topic as aha makes out she is. Refuges in the UK are people who have been granted asylum, whereas people who request asylum are asylum seekers. Everyone else is an immigrant or illegal immigrant.

Jeez. I'm spending time on this precisely because I don't want the Far Right to take control of this discussion. I have a DC and a lot of friends whose lives would be hell if they came to power. I'd also be a touch anxious on my own account.

People say things on this thread that I don't agree with, or wouldn't have said, or would have phrased differently, but I haven't the time to pounce on them all, and in any case I think free speech is an underpinning tenet of liberal democracy. I might not like what you say, but I sure as hell defend your right to say it (yes, even the most irritating poster I have ever encountered: there are many things she's said that I don't agree with but have let go).

I am open to persuasion: I've changed my mind about some things when reading this thread, and I have been educated by things posters have said and links they have provided - and by information I have gone looking for myself, to answer questions that have arisen. For example, I knew that most of the victims Islamist terror were Muslims; I didn't know until I looked just how many of them there were. It's grim.

What I am not open to is being coshed endlessly over the head by someone who KNOWS she's right with the fervour of a nineteen year old evangelical who has seen the light, but who cannot or will not answer my questions or who continuously dodges points that I and other people raise, and if she doesn't like what they say immediately calls them racists, xenophobes, bigots etc etc.

And for the umpteenth time: I have known through much of my life Muslims who I have liked. I know some now. What I don't like is Islamism, and literal interpretations of the Koran and cultural attitudes that oppress women, and gays, and members of other religions. Freedom of religion is a real concern for non-Muslims in many Muslim-majority countries (yes, it is, and not just in countries where ISIS is on the rampage either). I detest violent Christian extremists too: in my view, they distort the message of Christianity. And I detest the far right, and their anti-Semitism, and their racism, and their attitudes towards women.

Sorry this is long. But I'm exasperated.

You are so tedious emily. You don't engage, debate or answer questions. You just shout 'Raaaaaaaacist' and refuse to back up your arguments with any actual facts bar from a few selective, contradictory and easily demolished sound bites.

Far Right stuff from me?

I look forward to a list of quotes, emily.
If it's not provided within a reasonable time frame, say an hour, I'm reporting that comment too.

On the BNP website they declare Britain to be full, that services are being stretched by immigrants, that they fear identity in Britain to be disappearing. V similar content on this thread.

Guilt by association as an ad hominem fallacy:

This form of the argument is as follows:

Source S makes claim C.
Group G, which is currently viewed negatively by the recipient, also makes claim C.
Therefore, source S is viewed by the recipient of the claim as associated to the group G and inherits how negatively viewed it is.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_fallacy

I think it's very important we are all free to post our different views and are listened to. My principal concern is 1. that there is a lot of sexism and other bad stuff in some of the cultures abroad (and a few here already) and I don't want women's position to go backwards due to immigration; 2. that places like where I live in London are so crowded we are bursting at the seams even with beds in sheds and people sharing 10 to a 3 bed house and the like - we have not increased the infrastructure to accommodate the additional people - a general immigration issue including EU; and 3. as for so called asylyum seekers plenty are lying through their teeth in saying they are not economic migrants when clearly they are; plenty are the rich pushy ones who have left women behind and are the least we should help; far too many of them are young males without qualifications - exactly the sort of people we don't need.

Lumping me in too Emily? I've already said I've tried to be very balanced. I don't agree with the anecdote that Britt recounted re. Ethnicity and education. For what it's worth on the general subject I think often boys in general can be more challenging to teach from observation of my own sons class. But that is I think more due to the age and stage and how they are developing, the girls are just wired differently in terms of applying themselves. In terms of my sons class ethnic make up its 3/4 Pakistani Muslim and there is only 1 white British pupil, not my son (he is mixed European). The class is boy heavy as well.

So if you really want to lump me in. As I say I will be off listening to Skrewdriver if you truly believe that of me...only you can decide if that is your reality...

A reminder to everyone about the Petition. It was approved late afternoon on Sunday 24 January, so it's been running just a month and not well circularised - which we hope to rectify.

In terms of what the BNP have on their website, I don't know - I haven't looked. But it does bring to mind "just because you're paranoid, doesn't mean they're not out to get you" - and what I mean by that is this; just because the "far right" say it, doesn't mean it's wrong. They might be wrong about a billion things but there might be some things they're right about. What is it they say about monkeys, typewriters and Shakespearean plays?

Personally I think it's fascinating that those of us with "far right, raaaaacist xenophobic views" are those who are well-travelled and have met a variety of interesting people. The trouble with the Student Union is that it's run by angry 21 year olds holding off getting a job.

Grace, I would point out that Nick Griffin was arrested in 2004 for inciting racial hatred by claiming Asian grooming gangs existed. So even a stopped clock is right twice a day.

*The trouble with the Student Union is that it's run by angry 21 year olds holding off getting a job."

When I was chatting with a friend at work - quite a deep chat - it was overhead by one of these bright young things. She asked me how come I never had grandparents on either side, and I replied saying they had died in a famine. Famine! she exclaimed ..... what in Africa, you're not African though .... what do you mean .... You're making it up. It was beyond her imagination and understanding, and because this was history she knew nothing about she concluded it was not so. For whatever reason she would not accept what I was saying and concluded that I was lying.

And the final emily manoeuvre. Just stop posting and come back a few days later hoping everybody will have forgotten the questions you wouldn't answer and the arguments you couldn't counter.

Bill - I was thinking the stopped clock analogy. I didn't know about the previous arrest.

Britt that's shocking - and I'm sorry to hear of your grandparents. Surely when you hear a story like that you ask perhaps insensitively for more details. E.g., a few years ago I read a book about a Polish man who'd walked back to Europe (and to the UK) from the Gulags. Just a couple of weeks later I got talking to a Polish man and told him about this fascinating book... well blow me down with a feather - guess what his father had done? As you can imagine, I demanded the whole story - anything to fill the vaults.

I'm adopted mave. I used to be on an at risk register because of neglect and abuse. I'm not a social experiment, neither was the kid Emma Thompson looked after. Widely different situations of course, but two kids all the same that deserved a home and not to be blamed for what had happened to them.

I looked after the niece of my biological sister for quite some time. Not officially fostered, but she lived with me and I fed, clothed and loved her. So yes, I would foster a child. I did.

Now here are some comments from posts on this thread alongside quotes from the far right. I can easily spot similarities.

Fears about countryside and green space,

Lumela,

'However, I like open space and woodland and wildlife, and I also sometimes wonder idly about the UK's food security, since England is the UK's breadbasket, but we keep building on it: I don't think it's sustainable.)'

From Britt,

'The rate of immigration (from anywhere) to England specifically is not sustainable. Green belt land is not unfortunately fully protected either. There are some brown sites that could be built on, but no one in their right minds wants a vast, unchanging landscape of houses and apartment blocks. I want to retain the gaps and the waste ground because on that wasteland grow a multitude of flora and fauna, and is home to small wild creatures. They also need to live and flourish otherwise we will denude ourselves of everything that is not homo sapien'.

'Everything is interrelated, because no nation can keep up with building programmes. It takes years to build a hospital, for example, and where are you going to put it anyway? Even if the UK had the money and the labour to build 2 hospitals in every county, it would still not be enough in 10 years time.

From DeoGratias,

'We do not have space including housing in London for a lot more people at present. Every single new development here goes almost instantly it is on sale in our zone (zone 5)'.

From Britain First,

'The Office of National Statistics said Britain will face an influx of at least 10 million people by 2039 - two-thirds of whom are expected to come from migration. As a direct result, Britain's beloved countryside is facing devastation'. Britons can expect to to see major developments – such as high-rise blocks of flats – where they might once have seen a playing field'.

Fears about public services, such education, being stretched,

From ohforgodsake,

'why should children in Europe and other developed countries have less too?'

From Britt,

'My friend has been a teacher for 24 years and she can testify about the increase in class size, the difficulty with language which slows other kids down, the difficulty that some parents create to have their girl children excused from PE from age 7, the intransigence of some boys about learning (there is one ethnicity that disrupts all the time apparently); in secondary school some boys do not participate in lesson because they will not take instruction from female teachers. It goes on and on'.

From Britt,

'It is not unreasonable though, esp. as children have to vie for places now. My friend's daughter listed 4 primary schools of her choice for her daughter. Not one of them was successful. She was expected to drive to & collect her child to a fifth school that had been selected, but migrant children living either in nearby streets or a little further away, were offered places in the schools that F. had selected. The reason given off the record was .... migrant mothers do not drive'.

She wrote a letter of complaint and was offered a place at her first choice. Just think, she is 4th generation in that town (her children 5th) but that held no sway and was seen as totally irrelevant. HOW FAIR IS THAT?

From the BNP,

'The pressure on housing and
on public services such as schools,
hospitals, transport networks, welfare
and social security is far too great.
Britain’s full and it’s time to shut
the door!'

Fears about a particular ethnic group

From Britt,

'the intransigence of some boys about learning (there is one ethnicity that disrupts all the time apparently)'

From Britt,

'You dont know which ethnicity I am referring to. Polish kids want to learn, as do those from Eastern Europe such as Ukraine and Russia (Poland is not E.Europe strictly speaking). In those countries children do not muck around in class, and teachers are taken very seriously by parents'.

From Britt,

'It comes straight from the horse's mouth. My teacher friend of 24 yrs has said it, and the lady who works for me. The latter's son attends a secondary school where there is constant disruption by one particular ethnicity. My employee spoke to the Head, who confirmed that it is a constant and ongoing problem with boys of that age, from that country'.

These comments were seen as acceptable by many posters, despite their nature. Britt didn't specify the 'ethnic group', however far right groups frequently stereotype particular ethnic groups with disastrous consequences. Perhaps place 'Jewish' before 'boys' and see what the staements sound like then.

Fears of refugees being ungrateful,

From grimbletart,

'If I were a genuine refugee fleeing a dangerous country I would be so relieved and grateful that taxpayers in my new country were willing to offer me safety and that I was being offered a flat that could have gone to one of the many native-born Britons that need one, I wouldn't have the nerve to be concerned about the size of the bedroom or try and wangle someone else's parking space. Sense of entitlement or what?'

From Britt,

'Entitlement/Expectatons.
A friend of friend who works in Housing tells us that there is a significant amount of complaining coming from so-called refugees. In fact, I saw a TV doc last year in which a large ME family were being offered a very nice large flat in London. But the mother kept on wheedling, saying that one of the 3 bedrooms was too small, kitchen could be larger. The housing officer who accompanied the family simply said You have to tell me now if you want the flat. If not, then I have to phone the next family on my list to come down and see the place.

The ME woman said that they would take the flat but as the family has a car (!) they do need a parking space for their sole use. The officer said that parking spaces are limited to 3 and they are all taken. The woman had the gall to try and negotiate with the housing officer to have one of the allocations recinded and given to her! Can you believe it?'

From Britain First,

'Migrants who have settled in eastern Europe under an EU scheme are now complaining that their new home is not a “dream destination.However, ungrateful migrants who have arrived there are complaining about the cold weather, the lack of benefits and the fact that no one speaks their language. ”

The number of comments that have a lot in common with far right rhetoric are of a significant number. Many of the fears espoused on this thread are those repeated in far right rhetoric. Is this not curious if you claim you are not aligned with the far right? Has the language of the far right veered to the mainstream so much that it has lost its shock value and become so normalised that some people no longer recognise it for what it is?

BillSykes & Grace .... "I would point out that Nick Griffin was arrested in 2004 for inciting racial hatred by claiming Asian grooming gangs existed."

In fact, Griffin was arrested twice for incitement. He became aware of the grooming in 1997. It took from 2004 until 2013 for the great & the good to finally investigate. There was a Channel 4 doc in 2004 about it.

Um, Emily, ny DH doesn't like the cold weather, not many people speak his language, he miss the cakes in his home country. Doesn't mean he doesn't think it's a good place, just different. For the record he doesn't support Britain First. H e does however like the countryside here, he does think it's a bit crowded compared to his home city on the whole. He is mixed race.

For what it's worth I thought the lady expecting something to be removed from someone else and given to her, not really fair. If there was an imperative reason, for example, disability I could see a point but there apparently wasn't.

Oh do bore off Emily, you are not the thread monitor.

I could list all the nasty defamatory remarks you have made but that would make me as pathetic as you are and I've better things to do with my time.

Hm.
Concerns about population growth, food security and the countryside are the province of the Far Right?

From that well-known Far Right body, Council for the Protection of Rural England, Essex
CPRE’s research reveals plans to build 700,000 houses in open countryside, over 150,000 of them on Green belt. Lobbying to maximise brownfield building will not solve the problem: Brownfield land is running out - indeed has already run out for some LPAs, for example Brentwood here in Essex - and our county is one of those most threatened with incursions into Green Belt and other open countryside. Farmland too is under siege, undermining the country’s food security. So, why these draconian housing targets imposed on LPAs and how are they derived? The answer lies in a calculation used by government to predict housing need; and the single overriding factor driving the calculations and resulting housing targets, which is population growth. This is the elephant in CPRE’s room.

The national CPRE
Precious countryside is being put at risk to meet unattainable housing targets. For example, Cornwall is currently required to build 50,000 new homes (the equivalent of five ‘Truros’) with most homes likely to be inappropriately located on green fields on the outskirts of major towns in the county. Oxfordshire is currently required to build 100,000 houses - doubling previous targets – putting the county’s countryside under enormous pressure, including Green Belt and Areas of Outstanding Natural Beauty. These are just two examples of the unrealistic targets local authorities are having to adopt across England.

Seriously, emily, if However, I like open space and woodland and wildlife, and I also sometimes wonder idly about the UK's food security, since England is the UK's breadbasket, but we keep building on it: I don't think it's sustainable is the best you can do for my alleged 'far right comments', you need to get out more.

And yes, my concerns are based in fear: I'm afraid that the liberal, open society we have, and which is a flawed but very precious thing, will struggle massively to absorb and integrate millions of people from a very different cultural background (no, I'm not generalising to ALL Muslims, of course I'm not, but I would refer you to the Pew survey I've referred emily to a number of times). I'm worried we'll see many more collapses of social order like we saw in Cologne. I'm worried that Islamist terrorists will piggyback in amongst genuine refugees: Islamism despises democracy and human rights, and there is no accommodation to be made with it that I can see.

Lumela, this also reminded me of far right discourses that play on fears surrounding immigration.

'Personally I think it's fascinating that those of us with "far right, raaaaacist xenophobic views" are those who are well-travelled and have met a variety of interesting people. grin The trouble with the Student Union is that it's run by angry 21 year olds holding off getting a job'.

Nick Griffin is pretty middle class. I don't think those sort of views are confined to one class of people.

Oh balls emily, basically what you're saying is that anybody who has the slightest concern over migration (which is most of the country: see polls) and doesn't ascribe to your open borders, everyone is lovely and Islamic terrorist just need a cuddle view of the world is a far right nutter.

It's just the same old 'I have no coherent or sensible answer to any of your concerns so I'm just going to call you racist' crap that you've been spewing since early January.

O-kay.
So if the Far Right talk about something at all, if anyone else mentions it - the CPRE included - they're obviously Nazis too. Especially if they talk about valuing a liberal, open society the very thing Fascists can't wait to destroy.