Women's safety in Europe after Cologne

[DavidTCDaviesMP]

I have been invited onto Mumsnet to discuss the situation for women in Europe following the attacks in Cologne, and the challenge we face in Europe in trying to help millions of mainly young men, who are arriving in Europe from cultures which treat women very differently. I believe this is an issue which needs open discussion by political leaders yet is swept under the carpet. David Davies MP

Twisted, I have largely given up engaging with emily because it's pointless. For example, she made a comment about immigration to the UK being low. I linked to data which showed it to be at a record high. A few posts later, immigration is, according to emily, low again. That is inane and exasperating. Someone (Mave) says bigotry, arguably, is rarer and less acceptable than sexism. emily tells her that 'bigotry is not rare', as if she had claimed it was. And so on.

And yes, my concerns are based in fear: I'm afraid that the liberal, open society we have, and which is a flawed but very precious thing, will struggle massively to absorb and integrate millions of people from a very different cultural background (no, I'm not generalising to ALL Muslims, of course I'm not, but I would refer you to the Pew survey I've referred emily to a number of times). I'm worried we'll see many more collapses of social order like we saw in Cologne. I'm worried that Islamist terrorists will piggyback in amongst genuine refugees: Islamism despises democracy and human rights, and there is no accommodation to be made with it that I can see.

If there are more collapses of social order, if there are more cover-ups, if there are more terror attacks, the Far Right is only going to gather more steam. I don't want that to happen: the Far Right is notoriously anti-women. So we need to try and tackle this issue now.

At the same time, I don't want genuine refugees to suffer more than they already have. Being a refugee is an awful experience to go through, and it affects people for the rest of their lives (I know this, I have family members who went through it, I've talked to them about it). Urging them to cross a dangerous sea, to live in a tented camp or a school hall in the German winter, in country where many or most will not be able to speak the language or even read the script in which it is written, seems to me a very poor and risky use of resources. It also (as I have said before) risks Europe cherry-picking out the talented people, leaving far fewer educated, able people available to go back and rebuild Iraq when this is all over.

If that makes me xenophobic, racist, uncaring, a bastard, etc, I'll take it on the chin.

no concerns over Britt's statement that a particular ethnic group don't want to learn then?

This is not my opinion. It comes straight from the horse's mouth. My teacher friend of 24 yrs has said it, and the lady who works for me. The latter's son attends a secondary school where there is constant disruption by one particular ethnicity. My employee spoke to the Head, who confirmed that it is a constant and ongoing problem with boys of that age, from that country. She feels it could be to do with boys from that area of the world not wanting to take instruction from female teachers.

Oh fgs, of course the conversation HAS to move on from cologne - it's called "cause and effect". Those 1000 rapey men weren't dropped off at the train station by the unicorn rapey delivery service. We need to explore how they happened to be there.

Furthermore, it's not a Boolean logic problem. To insist all migrants are "good" is as nonsensical as suggesting all are "bad".

Shades of grey, but WHERE do we draw the line?

Yes women, children and those fleeing persecution (in which numbers), no rapey illiterates with little regard for western law and civilisation.

You will never reach a conclusion without discussing the problem.

those of us who work full time got sick of paying parents who work part time through top up tax credits.

I agree Deo, except it is the employer who should take up the slack and pay a living wage. For years, the public purse has topped up people's low earnings and that is not right. I suggest wages based on a hourly rate of not less £10 could be a starter.

I am surprised London, Paris, Berlin and other European cities are not participating

Mavelus that would be admitting a problem. Perhaps Bruxelles can no longer stay schtum and is stepping away from the Germany-dominated EU and the danger that has been imported for European women.

Havent posted for a while but due to the classism shown by Deo........IM OUT

I have read her posts, HelenaDove but cannot see what has upset you. You say 'classism' - please explain.

'there is one ethnicity that disrupts all the time apparently'

Which ethnicity are you referring to, TwistedReach?

This is interesting, and perhaps heartening. The Home Office is attempting to deport the leader of the Rochdale sex ring, arguing:

“The public interest weighs heavily in favour of the secretary of state, to ensure those granted the benefits of British citizenship, however that comes to arise, know the responsibilities that go with it.

“And if you get involved in very serious organised crime, then one of the consequences of that is that they will be deprived of their British citizenship.”

A step towards sending a signal, perhaps.

What is also interesting is the perpetrator has latched on to the "islamophobia" narrative, and is attempting to use it in his own defense:

'Ahmed told the court: “She [Theresa May] says all her trouble is coming from Muslims, yet she’s the biggest trouble causer in the world.”
He said he was convicted by “11 white jurors”, adding: “It’s become fashionable to blame everything on Muslims these days.”...Ahmed’s appeal states his trial was tainted and a miscarriage of justice as it was “institutionally racist” and made Muslims into “scapegoats”.'

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/feb/16/rochdale-child-sex-gang-ringleader-appeals-against-deportation

Interesting, kesstrel.

Victimhood is one of the tactics used by hostiles, and it has been refined to such a degree that some people might stop to give it thought. If you turn Ahmed's argument around, i.e. white jury therefore racism, and point out that what he organised and did was endemic racism targeting white girls mostly.

Does anyone here support Shabir Ahmed (see above) in his fight against deportation for sex crimes? I think he might have at least two supporters on this thread ......

I have only read the last couple of pages this morning. I thought these threads were about the safety of women and finding ways to protect women's rights to safety at a time when men from violent and sexist regions are entering to Europe. poster Emily seems to twist selected posts without contributing ideas regarding the topic "safety of all women in a society that sees an influx of dangerous sexism and man-on-women or man-on-girl violence perpetrated by men who have not been socialised to resect women's and girl's physical autonomy. That seems counter protective. poster Emily I salute you for challenging bigotry. You seem to care for Muslim migrants how would you suggest, migrants from societies where women have few rights and sexual violence is omnipresent, how would you suggest that men from such cultures are taught to respect all women once they have entered Europe? Also, do you have any views on how women in MENA countries could live more safely and how to reduce sex crimes and sexism in those countries? Thank you. It's important to hear solution from the very people who care about migrants and who are fighting bigotry.

I did an internship with the UN many years ago (in Africa) and I know that sexual violence does feature in various wrk streams. I looked up some info and also found this which could be relevant
www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs239/en/

In low-income settings, primary prevention strategies, such as microfinance combined with gender equality training and community-based initiatives that address gender inequality and relationship skills, hold promise.
Situations of conflict, post conflict and displacement may exacerbate existing violence, such as by intimate partners, and present additional forms of violence against women.

there seems to be a recognition that displacement may exacerbate these problems.

intimate partner violence
apps.who.int/iris/bitstream/10665/85239/1/9789241564625_eng.pdf

Africa
45.6
Americas
36.1
Eastern Mediterranean
36.4
Europe
27.2
South-East Asia
40.2
Western Pacific
27.9a
High income
32.7

It could be suggested that as men from countries with high prevalence of sexual violence move to Europe they don't leave there attitudes behind. How can this importing of bad attitudes to women be tackled?

"Evidence suggests that certain characteristics of women, such as sexual orientation, disability status or ethnicity, and some contextual factors, such as humanitarian crises, including conflict and post-conflict situations, may increase women’s vulnerability to violence. www.unwomen.org/en/what-we-do/ending-violence-against-women/facts-and-figures

and
www.unwomen.org/en/digital-library/multimedia/2015/11/infographic-violence-against-women

women's rights in MENA
in.reuters.com/article/us-arab-women-factbox-idINBRE9AB00I20131112

*Egypt is the worst country for women in the Arab world, closely followed by Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Syria and Yemen, according to gender experts surveyed in a Thomson Reuters Foundation poll released on Tuesday.

Comoros, Oman, Kuwait, Jordan and Qatar came top of the survey, which assessed 22 Arab states on violence against women, reproductive rights, treatment of women within the family, their integration into society and attitudes towards a woman's role in politics and the economy.

The results were drawn from answers from 336 gender experts invited to participate in an online survey by the foundation, the philanthropic arm of the news and information company Thomson Reuters, in August and September.*

'Victimhood is one of the tactics used by hostiles,'

Yes I think the most perverse type of bully turns things around and plays the victim as well - giving you a double whammy, as if the the original abuse wasn't enough - they saddle you with their victimhood. I think similar stategies are used by misogynistic men and that women by nature are not always that good at dealing with such strategies - when told they are not caring enough. In order to tackle misogyny women are going to have to harden up a bit and not be taken in and recognise the tactic when it's used. It's used on this thread, so getting plenty of practice here.

Yes, we need solutions. I think I put a list up earlier on the thread. We can try to ensure we mostly give women and chidlren under 10 the chance to come here rather than uneducated sexism young African men who are economic migrants. That is UK policy but it doesn't work unless the rest of the EU is on board.

We need to think of ways to send people back whose applications fail as many many of them get back in even if sent away. Easyjet has had to pay £400,000 in just one year (£2k per person) for individuals who arrive in the UK who have no right to and it's not really the company's fault. In the latest case Edinburgh home office staff picked up on the fake passports. Do we sent those people straight home or do 99% of them slip on to UK soil and disappear?

In 2000 97% of Egyptians still practised female genital mutilation. Some of these countries have very different ways of treating women than the West. We need to be very careful and not tolerate any sexism even if it offends people's sensibilities.

(I will have to read up on another page of the thread to see what it says about classism. I don't deny I am a full time working mother originally from the NE who has always worked full time and resent paying so much tax to keep people who don't work as hard but that is not really for the thread)

In order to tackle misogyny women are going to have to harden up a bit and not be taken in and recognise the tactic when it's used.

Yes, most women really have to wise up to loads of things. The best education I ever got (about how men think) was from my boyfriend. He told me that a man's 'take' on any given scenario is quite different to a woman's; women tend to assume something has been said (when it has not) and the man has cannily not said it but allowed her to think it. Guess what happens!

This time last year I saw a TV doc on marriage fraud - immigrant men already over here who pretend to fall for a British woman. Also, the fraud can be started when the women him abroad. I emailed one of the founders of an organisation called Immigration Marriage Fraud who herself had been duped and we had an exchange of emails. The men target older women with a job, flat, car and they are so good at keeping up the pretence for years, until they get their papers. She told me that the very day he got his Permission to Remain papers, he told her he was leaving her.
If anyone's interested in deception, check out:

www.immigrationmarriagefrauduk.com/

As Inkanta says, harden up. I asked the woman why she did not stop and think, as objectively as you can when you're loved up, the following. Why is this man interested in me, a much older woman who cannot give him children? But she was groomed and she fell for it, as have many in the UK.

Sporting, you're pretending Britt didn't say something racist because she's 'on your side' as you see it. What were her intentions in saying it if it were merely an 'anecdote'? You are defending a racist. It is interesting that this 'danger' you believe to be entering Europe allows you to close your eyes and mind to the danger of racism. Calling what Britt said as deeply wrong is nowhere near saying the North Korean regime is 'fine.' I think many people would look at those comments and see something wrong. Making out I am some deluded fantasist because of it is ridiculous.

I have offered practical ideas but anything that doesn't fit with the consensus here is not listened to.

Cellar, those attacks are organised attacks by neo Nazis. One man almost died. It makes me sick that you are justifying it. You are an apologist for neo Nazis. Many frustrating things happen in our lives. Do those things mean we can then go and kick the life out of someone until they are unconscious? Violence is not an inevitable response to a difficult situation.

After seeing Cellardoor's comments, I have to say, I shouldn't be shocked that Britt is defended. You say those attacks were 'inevitable'?

I am extremely sad about the bulldozing of the camp Twisted and the destruction of the church and the mosque. I am sad to hear that more of the camp will be destroyed. I am horrified about the attacks and disturbed by reports of inaction or even collusion by the police. We live in sad times. I am so grateful to you and others that have helped the people there.

Also Twisted, it is heartening that their petition hasn't recieved much support. I think you are right, most people see it for what it is and many of the posters here for what they are.

There are many regular posters on here but I see it is only me that has had it suggested I have mental health issues for posting regularly. It shows a real inability to critique what I'm saying I suppose, if suggesting I am mentally ill is pretty much all someone has to say.

Perhaps you'dlike to specify which group you are referring to Britt and wat relevance tis particular anecdote as to the safety of women?

No emily, she didn't say she agreed with it. Neither did I did I? But you like insinuating that you know my thoughts don't you? We are not in Minority Report are we?

You have not really offered any practical steps that you think should be taken to safeguard women's safety at all.

Cellar said the attacks were inevitable, not that she agreed. I'm afraid some things are inevitable (the far right doing some of the things they do is I'm afraid something very wrong but it does happen, that's why we had the anti-fascist movement to try and put a stop to it back in the 80's, I am afraid there will always be people who think that way and they will try to do very bad stuff), and Calais camp is like a red rag to them. No most people don't agree with kicking anyone and wouldn't but some do, we just have to fight those who do. I don't want the people in Calais kept in the conditions they are but am not sure what the answers are, I am sure that there are no easy answers to it all.

I am very aware of what racism constitutes, I was there back in the day when we had anti-fascist action and the threat of the NF and Combat 18 were all too present. I don't think Britt is anywhere near that. Concern for women's rights doesn't mean I am rascist. I want everyone to be able to live a free and full life and that includes the women I know from migrant communities and the women currently in the camps who are facing issues being harassed by males.

Please stop insinuating that you know my thoughts, I don't know yours, for all I know you have some deeply disturbing views on other issues that I don't know about but I'm not about to probe as you are entitled to your private views as an individual.

You actually are a bit twisted emily with that latest remark. Very judgemental about people who you don't know in real life. You don't come across as mentally ill, just downright unpleasant, glad I don't know you in real life, I'd be distancing myself pretty quickly.

This statement from Akala sums up Calais and the European reaction and inaction to refugees for me,

'No matter what. the 700 people that were left to drown off the coast of the Meditteranean, were they white human beings, they wouldn't have been left to drown and they certainly wouldn't have been called cockroaches.'

Did most people on here say they should be left to drown? Did anybody call them cockroaches? No.

Please stop using Akala's words as if that is what we all thought, I like Akala a lot and find it really truly offensive you trying to twist it. By the way I am pretty sure Akala believes in women's and gay rights too...

Ahmed’s appeal states his trial was tainted and a miscarriage of justice as it was “institutionally racist” and made Muslims into “scapegoats”

It would appear he's tried similar before: www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-26653134

I honestly wouldn't rely on him being removed from the country any time soon ...

Emily - have just reported your posts. It feels to me like you're throwing everything and the kitchen sink here now. It seems destructive.